[quote]Originally posted by RUQWIKR:
<strong>

Just don't make it too restrictive to where the hardcore guys are excluded...just put them in the same cage with each other and let them fight it out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly!! that is the reason for the indexes, and the 11.49 and quicker 'outlaw' bolt-on index in particular.

 

HA HA HA!!! Offend ME?? <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />

 

I think this is a great idea, because, as we all know, BRACKET RACING SUCKS ***!!!!

There's nothing better than watching a gamblers race final between a slant 6 dart and an 8 second dragster.

This is what I was hoping for, a race for the guy who just has bolt ons and thinks that hitting the brakes or lifting the throttle is BS.


Run whatcha brung, and hope it's enough!

The trophy idea is great, because you won't get as many folks who are willing to cheat, cause they can't profit from it. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />

 

[quote]Originally posted by mattf2:
<strong>I think this is a great idea, because, as we all know, BRACKET RACING SUCKS ***!!!!

There's nothing better than watching a gamblers race final between a slant 6 dart and an 8 second dragster.

This is what I was hoping for, a race for the guy who just has bolt ons and thinks that hitting the brakes or lifting the throttle is BS.


Run whatcha brung, and hope it's enough!

The trophy idea is great, because you won't get as many folks who are willing to cheat, cause they can't profit from it. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Cool!! I was beginning to feel like I was in the minority on this.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

Cool!! I was beginning to feel like I was in the minority on this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So it'll be you and me as the only 2 participants.

Hell, i'd take a runner up trophy!

 

I'd say bolt-on, not indexed. Yes there will be cheaters, there is in all forms of racing. As long as no serious money is at stake, it won't be too bad.

You'll still keep alotta people in the brackets due to the fact that M6 cars are about 50% of F-body sales.

Indexed racing amounts to someone doing a dial-in pass, then adding weight to their car to run 12.0x.

You may also consider tire restrictions to accomplish the same thing, like they do at Super Chevy events. But instead of "DOT Radial" say "Treadwear 140+" this will force the use of true street tires, because treadwear numbers are on all DOT street tires. This is what the AutoX guys do. High output cars won't race in this class because they will show embarrassing times.

Just my .02c's.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Bob Cosby:
<strong>

Which is also what makes it a bracket race - you can't go faster than your index, and a slower car gets a head start.

Once again...no offense intended. My thoughts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bob, you are really putting out some MISINFORMATION, please go back and reread all of the posts in this thread. Racing within each index class WILL BE 100% HEADS-UP with NO HANDICAP STARTS. The only index handi-cap starts involved will be those BETWEEN THE INDEX CLASS WINNERS AND ONLY FOR BRAGGING RIGHTS. Are people not paying attention or what?

 

Bob you can disagree on the tire issue all you want, but remember, for the most part this will be ameteur racing. I have seen far too many novices bring an over-powered car to the track on street tires and do 360s in the middle of the track, cross lanes and contact the other racer, and hit the wall. I WILL NOT RACE AGAINST SOMEONE IN THE OTHER LANE WHO HAS STREET TIRES on an 11 sec. car. No way, no how, and I don't expect anyone else to either. Would you play football on slick soled loafers?

Guys I am trying to come up with a compromise solution, ie. heads-up index racing, to make the car prep and racing extremely easy on everyone in order to get max participation. I am trying to combine the advantages of both strict class racing with the advantages of bracket racing and I think that heads-up index racing does this.

Strict car class rules will not be easy. It will be a PITA to enforce as well as prepare your car for (not to mention coming up with the class rules to begin with, some will be opposed to any rule you come up with). And inevitably some of the strict class rules will give an unfair advantage to someone at the expense of others. Please think about this. This is why the NHRA moved away from strict class racing years ago.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>Bob you can disagree on the tire issue all you want, but remember, for the most part this will be ameteur racing. I have seen far too many novices bring an over-powered car to the track on street tires and do 360s in the middle of the track, cross lanes and contact the other racer, and hit the wall. I WILL NOT RACE AGAINST SOMEONE IN THE OTHER LANE WHO HAS STREET TIRES on an 11 sec. car. No way, no how, and I don't expect anyone else to either. Would you play football on slick soled loafers?

Guys I am trying to come up with a compromise solution, ie. heads-up index racing, to make the car prep and racing extremely easy on everyone in order to get max participation. I am trying to combine the advantages of both strict class racing with the advantages of bracket racing and I think that heads-up index racing does this.

Strict car class rules will not be easy. It will be a PITA to enforce as well as prepare your car for. And inevitably some of the strict class rules will give an unfair advantage to someone at the expense of others. Please think about this. This is why the NHRA moved away from strict class racing years ago.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like Super Chevy, the tire restriction is the ONLY restriction for that class. Much like Index Racing without the Index.

11 second cars won't be 11 sec cars, nor will they run consistantly. The will need to race in another class. The owner of a 11.5 car isn't going to want 5,000 people watch him run 12.5.

If you want to get people outta the stands and race, many aren't going to bring slicks to the track anyways. They are going to run street tires. Besides I hear everyone East of the Colorado cuts 1.7 60's on F1's anyways. J/K.

About being Outta Control, that has nothing to do with tires. It talent, not tires. I've seen guys with drag radials and slicks cross the line as much as street tired cars.

Brackets already solve the problem of letting people race their everyday lightly mod'd cars.

If you want to see who has the fastest bolt-on car, race heads up.

 

McRat,

I appreciate your thoughts and input, but index racing won't keep us from knowing who the fastest bolt-on car is. The winner of the 11.49 and quicker index, by default will be the quickest bolt-on car. Is that not clear?

Ironically, it is the very racing that you propose that will keep us from knowing who the real quickest bolt-on car is. Because the quickest car, RUQKIKR, darn sure won't be running 11.30 on street radials which means he could be beaten by a 12.30 bolt-on car. So who would be the quickest bolt-on car?


Heads-up Index racing will let you know:

1) the quickest overall bolt-on car, winner of 11.49 and quicker class

2) the quickest 11.50 to 11.99 bolt-on car, the winner of this class

3) and the quickest 12.00 to 12.49 bolt-on car, the winner of this class.

We could also add a 12.50 to 12.99 class if we need too. This approach allows their to be 3 or 4 winners instead of just one.

In strict class rules racing, what high 12 sec. bolt-on car is going to show up to run against a 11 sec. bolt-on car? and this whole street tire deal is totally unfair to people who have an 11 sec bolt-on car and want to run it.

I think that most people feeling that they have no chance to win anyway will keep them away in droves from the class rules racing.

With my proposed indexing system, you get the best of both worlds. The truely quick bolt-on guys get to compete heads-up among themselves. And the slower, few mod, racers get to compete heads-up among themselves, AND we don't have to police the cars.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

2quick4u: There's nothing to stop an 11.90 guy(who might not have a chance in his index) from tossing a bag of sand in his car and mopping up in the 12.00 index.
Index racing is still just bracket-racing.

I prefer a true heads-up class with stricter rules. If people don't like it, then they can run brackets.

The big issue here is this: Does the NFRA want to make the step to being a real organization? If so, then they need real classes.

 

[quote]Originally posted by cASe SenSiTive:
<strong>2quick4u: There's nothing to stop an 11.90 guy(who might not have a chance in his index) from tossing a bag of sand in his car and mopping up in the 12.00 index.
Index racing is still just bracket-racing.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see anything wrong with making your car heavier or slower to run in an index class. I do however see something wrong with 'lifting' or 'braking' to a 12.01 with an 11.90 car and we would have rules against that.

Since this is heads-up racing with no lifting or braking, how is this bracket-racing?

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>Since this is heads-up racing with no lifting or braking, how is this bracket-racing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can still break out. A 12.00 index is just telling everyone in brackets that they'll all be dialing in a 12.00. Besides your lifting rule, there's no difference.

 

[quote]Originally posted by cASe SenSiTive:
<strong>
The big issue here is this: Does the NFRA want to make the step to being a real organization? If so, then they need real classes.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then the NFRA better be prepared to have a ton of different classes, because that is what it will take to get broad base participation and give everyone a fair chance at winning.

To be fair to the really quick bolt-on guys as well as the hardly modded bolt-on guys, you would really need to have many different strict classes of 'Bolt-on/Stock', not just one. You need different classes for A4s, M6s, non-stock converters, street radial, drag radial, bias-ply slick, different weight classes...etc., etc. ad infinitum. Don't think we have enough bolt-on cars for that. And who would want to police that mess as well as come up with the different rules for each class in the first place. If you have only one strict rules class, then it will either unfairly favor the fast guys OR the lesser modded slow guys. There is no way around that without multiple classes or my index solution.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>
You can still break out. A 12.00 index is just telling everyone in brackets that they'll all be dialing in a 12.00. Besides your lifting rule, there's no difference.</strong><hr></blockquote>

With all due respect Trevor, I disagree. When was the last time you competed in a heads-up, no lift, no brake, bracket race?

The indexes are there to eliminate the need for many car rules and the policing required. They are also there to group cars with similar degree of mods, capabilities, and performance together for close racing. Nothing more. It is fair to the heavily modded as well as the lightly modded alike. Everyone who enters has a valid chance to win his class without the odds being unfairly stacked against him.

If you run under your index, you by definition are in the WRONG index to begin with (cheater). So you will be moved to the next quicker index to compete if this is practical, or DQ'd if it is too far along into eliminations.

Look if you run under your index, it is your own stupid, ignorant fault. You get qualification runs to tune your car and add or subtract weight as needed.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

I know what indexes are for, but that doesn't eliminate someone breaking out with an 11.999 in a 12.00 index. I can guarantee that the only time you'll be moved to another index is in qualifying. If you run under the index in eliminations, you'll be out. It doesn't matter if it's the 1st round or the finals. It's going to happen! When you're in a slit-throat competition trying to nail a 12.00 every pass, it's going to happen. It's not ignorance, stupidity, or any of that. It's simply variances in racing (traction, wind, temperature, etc.). It's kind of like cutting a .499 light on a .500 full tree. If you don't have one every once in a while, then you're not trying hard enough. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>I know what indexes are for, but that doesn't eliminate someone breaking out with an 11.999 in a 12.00 index. I can guarantee that the only time you'll be moved to another index is in qualifying. If you run under the index in eliminations, you'll be out. It doesn't matter if it's the 1st round or the finals. It's going to happen! When you're in a slit-throat competition trying to nail a 12.00 every pass, it's going to happen. It's not ignorance, stupidity, or any of that. It's simply variances in racing (traction, wind, temperature, etc.). It's kind of like cutting a .499 light on a .500 full tree. If you don't have one every once in a while, then you're not trying hard enough. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's racing, that's life, so what! Why are you so scared of this happening to you? Big deal, so you lose, that's racing!

You guys are making way too big a deal out of this running an 11.999 on a 12.00. If you do it, it's your own darn fault, you lost, that's life, so what. Next time leave yourself a bigger cushion on your car set-up. It's called tuning.

I'm tired of you bracket guys whining about not being able to lift or brake. Get some skillz. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">

Again, these are the EXACT same rules out of the NMCA EFI 11,12,13 second index classes.

I suppose you'd rather run heads up with RUQWIKR? <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>I'm tired of you bracket guys whining about not being able to lift or brake. Get some skillz. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL! Now I don't have any racing skills. <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> I'm not scared of losing; it's part of racing. I didn't mention running an 11.999 because I'm scared of breaking out! I mentioned it to let you know that it doesn't matter how little you run under the index and that you can break out in an index class. If you break out you break out! It doesn't matter if I run the 11.999 on a 12.00 in "brackets" or if I do it in a 12.00 index class. Either way you break out and lose. That's what happens in bracket racing. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
I'll let the "hardcore" bolt-on guys duke it out. I'll be in the lowly brackets where I belong, cheating of course. Y'all have fun. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Trevor
-unskilled, whining, cheating bracket racer

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>

 

I've been trying to stay out of this but I can't help myself. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Rules..... The more rules you have just means there will be more ways to cheat. Example.... If the rules don't say you can't then it must mean you can. It won't be cheating but just getting competitive.

Make a class and tell me what the rules are and I'll figure out how to play by them.

That's what happened at Bowling Green back in September.... Chris and John came up with some classes that sounded good but I think they were surprised with the outcome especially the Quik 8 showdown. That's what happens when serious racers get hold of rules that are not very strict.

You've got two choices. Open comp or index racing.
Anything more than that will involve rules, protest and teardowns and take from a old stock and superstock eliminator racer... You don't want to go down that road. It's very expensive. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Also about lifting..... It can't be policed.... That's why NMCA did not inforce it... I know because I slid through the lights in the race at Atlanta and nobody said a word.

 

Preach on brother Joe. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
Nice to hear some wisdom from some of the racers who have raced professionally for decades.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>