NFRA: Bolt-on class?
NFRA: Bolt-on class? For 2002, one of the things we are kicking aroung is the addition a bolt-on class. We would do this in hopes of getting the less-modified guys out of the stands or brackets and racing heads up.
Determining which mods to allow in such a class is the easy part. The difficulty will be in policing disallowed modifications. We don't want to get into teardowns.
Anyone have any good ideas?
Determining which mods to allow in such a class is the easy part. The difficulty will be in policing disallowed modifications. We don't want to get into teardowns.
Anyone have any good ideas?
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? Sounds like a good idea Chris! I'm all for a bolt-on class. To keep the racing close, maybe we could set up a bolt-on 12 sec class and a bolt-on 11 sec class. Not sure how to handle the honesty and 'tear-down' issue.
I do think it would be good though to establish a minimum weight so that highly stripped cars, non daily drivers, could not compete. IMO cars without A/C, power steering, and ABS are non-daily drivers for this class. Or we could have a separate class for 'lightweight' cars like RUQWIKR.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
I do think it would be good though to establish a minimum weight so that highly stripped cars, non daily drivers, could not compete. IMO cars without A/C, power steering, and ABS are non-daily drivers for this class. Or we could have a separate class for 'lightweight' cars like RUQWIKR.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? That would be AWESOME! I would think that the min. weight requirements would apply for this class as well, but I also agree that these should be true street cars with factory a/c, power steering, etc. I'd like to see a min. weight higher than 3,300# w/ driver, but beggars can't be choosers. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
Honesty might be a problem without tearing down vehicles, but I would expect someone to know about a car that might "raise a brow". I know it varies from car to car, but maybe we could dyno the cars the day before? <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> If an A4 belts out 380 RWHP and it's a "bolt-on" car, then we know that there's something wrong. I know this is pretty unrealistic and it would cost extra for each person, not to mention the fact that it varies from car to car, but that's about the only way I know to do it without a teardown.
I think the class is a great idea if the hidden mods (i.e. ported heads, etc.) can be regulated.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
Honesty might be a problem without tearing down vehicles, but I would expect someone to know about a car that might "raise a brow". I know it varies from car to car, but maybe we could dyno the cars the day before? <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> If an A4 belts out 380 RWHP and it's a "bolt-on" car, then we know that there's something wrong. I know this is pretty unrealistic and it would cost extra for each person, not to mention the fact that it varies from car to car, but that's about the only way I know to do it without a teardown.
I think the class is a great idea if the hidden mods (i.e. ported heads, etc.) can be regulated.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? If you're going to do it by indexes, like 2quick suggested, there shouldn't be too big an issue with "hidden mods." I mean, if you can run close to 11.00 with no throttle stop or starting line aid, who cares what you did to your car to get there? Of course, index racing is a lot like brackets and yes, we all know how the majority feels about those <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? LOL Mir! I can get a bolt-on N2O kit pretty easy. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">
Kristi brought up a great point. Instead of running a bracket class, maybe it would be easier to run a few different index classes. That way you wouldn't have to worry with who has what mods, and it would be a little more structured towards heads-up vs. all-out brackets. You could have a 422 cid vs. a stock-internal car and not worry about it. Sure, you can still break out, but you'd at least get to see both cars leave together, and it would give the crowd more of a sense of heads-up since that what seems to be popular. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> I think it would eliminate a lot of headaches and work by having the index classes.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
Kristi brought up a great point. Instead of running a bracket class, maybe it would be easier to run a few different index classes. That way you wouldn't have to worry with who has what mods, and it would be a little more structured towards heads-up vs. all-out brackets. You could have a 422 cid vs. a stock-internal car and not worry about it. Sure, you can still break out, but you'd at least get to see both cars leave together, and it would give the crowd more of a sense of heads-up since that what seems to be popular. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> I think it would eliminate a lot of headaches and work by having the index classes.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? If we had enough cars we could run bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class ('outlaw bolt-on' <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ), bolt-on 11.99 to 11.50 class and bolt-on 12.50 to 12.00 class (for Kristi <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ). Within those index's everyone can run heads up. The winners of those index classes could then race each other with a .5 sec handicap or 1.0 sec handicap depending on which class winner is racing which class winner. Sort of a bracket race between index class winners for bragging rights.
I think that would keep the issue of a teardown to a minimum.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
I think that would keep the issue of a teardown to a minimum.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
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Verdad Gallardo Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? That might work, but we would need a nice turnout of competitive bolt-on cars to show in order to warrant three different classes for one overall bolt-on class. Having a "king of the hill" bolt-on shootout would also be a good idea; this way the NFRA wouldn't have to pay three separate purses for each class. That could change later on once the NFRA has grown enough to be able to warrant paying separate purses. Pooling the classes also makes for a bigger payout. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
Your "king of the hill" idea may backfire if you make it that far. No matter what index Kristi runs she's gonna be VERY competitive since she can consistently cut the tree down. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
Your "king of the hill" idea may backfire if you make it that far. No matter what index Kristi runs she's gonna be VERY competitive since she can consistently cut the tree down. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? [quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>Your "king of the hill" idea may backfire if you make it that far. No matter what index Kristi runs she's gonna be VERY competitive since she can consistently cut the tree down. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trevor, that was the whole idea of coming up with that in the first place, to give Kristi a chance at winning something. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Also keep in mind that it is not a true bracket race either. It is an index bracket race. So if I run 11.60 in the 11.50 to 11.99 class and Kristi runs 12.50 in the 12.00 to 12.50 class, she will get a .5 index handicap start and I am 9/10 of sec quicker. Advantage ME! LOL <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
<strong>Your "king of the hill" idea may backfire if you make it that far. No matter what index Kristi runs she's gonna be VERY competitive since she can consistently cut the tree down. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trevor, that was the whole idea of coming up with that in the first place, to give Kristi a chance at winning something. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Also keep in mind that it is not a true bracket race either. It is an index bracket race. So if I run 11.60 in the 11.50 to 11.99 class and Kristi runs 12.50 in the 12.00 to 12.50 class, she will get a .5 index handicap start and I am 9/10 of sec quicker. Advantage ME! LOL <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? I would be entering that class if you make it; but I drive daily with no power steering and it is my brand new 02' <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? [quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>If we had enough cars we could run bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class ('outlaw bolt-on' <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ), bolt-on 11.99 to 11.50 class and bolt-on 12.50 to 12.00 class (for Kristi <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ). Within those index's everyone can run heads up. The winners of those index classes could then race each other with a .5 sec handicap or 1.0 sec handicap depending on which class winner is racing which class winner. Sort of a bracket race between index class winners for bragging rights.
I think that would keep the issue of a teardown to a minimum.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I like this idea. Id lose either way, but I still like this idea.
Ryan
<strong>If we had enough cars we could run bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class ('outlaw bolt-on' <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ), bolt-on 11.99 to 11.50 class and bolt-on 12.50 to 12.00 class (for Kristi <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ). Within those index's everyone can run heads up. The winners of those index classes could then race each other with a .5 sec handicap or 1.0 sec handicap depending on which class winner is racing which class winner. Sort of a bracket race between index class winners for bragging rights.
I think that would keep the issue of a teardown to a minimum.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I like this idea. Id lose either way, but I still like this idea.
Ryan
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? [quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>The way you want to set this up would be easy as pie to "cheat" and win. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
Think about it!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is that Kristi? If you run quicker than your index, you automaitcally lose. If you want to win and be competetive, just run right on the bottom of your index. What's cheating about that?
Also remember that the index bracket racing is between index winners (who will most likely be running close to the index bottom to win in the first place and advance in the heads up racing).
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
<strong>The way you want to set this up would be easy as pie to "cheat" and win. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
Think about it!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is that Kristi? If you run quicker than your index, you automaitcally lose. If you want to win and be competetive, just run right on the bottom of your index. What's cheating about that?
Also remember that the index bracket racing is between index winners (who will most likely be running close to the index bottom to win in the first place and advance in the heads up racing).
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? Actual hypothetical race:
I happen to win my class at 11.60. Kristi wins her class at 12.03. Kristi gets .5 sec head start in index winners indexed bracket race against me. Looks like Kristi gets the advantage. The moral of the story is run on the bottom of your index without red lighting, sleeping, breaking-out, or letting-off. Braking and letting off will be an automatic loss.
Index classes is the ONLY way I can think of, of getting around a tear down inspection. By running indexed classes you cut down on the advantage that people who cheat on their engines have. Because everyone chooses their index and everyone will most likely be running near the bottom of the index to be competetive. It will make for some very close heads-up racing.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
I happen to win my class at 11.60. Kristi wins her class at 12.03. Kristi gets .5 sec head start in index winners indexed bracket race against me. Looks like Kristi gets the advantage. The moral of the story is run on the bottom of your index without red lighting, sleeping, breaking-out, or letting-off. Braking and letting off will be an automatic loss.
Index classes is the ONLY way I can think of, of getting around a tear down inspection. By running indexed classes you cut down on the advantage that people who cheat on their engines have. Because everyone chooses their index and everyone will most likely be running near the bottom of the index to be competetive. It will make for some very close heads-up racing.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? [quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>You're gonna disqualify for braking and letting off!?!? Um, ok. Who, exactly, determines whether or not someone lifts at the finish line?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very simple Kristi, the same way NMCA does in EFI 11,12, and 13 index brackets. Brakelights before finish line is auto disqualification. Letting off will be determined by a minimum required trapspeed for each index. This is needed to keep people from 'sand-bagging'.
If there gets to be a concern about people cheating on their engines, we can also have a maximum allowed trap speed in each class as well.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
<strong>You're gonna disqualify for braking and letting off!?!? Um, ok. Who, exactly, determines whether or not someone lifts at the finish line?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very simple Kristi, the same way NMCA does in EFI 11,12, and 13 index brackets. Brakelights before finish line is auto disqualification. Letting off will be determined by a minimum required trapspeed for each index. This is needed to keep people from 'sand-bagging'.
If there gets to be a concern about people cheating on their engines, we can also have a maximum allowed trap speed in each class as well.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>
Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? The more we discuss the stipulations to the "bolt-on" class the more I'm in favor of a few index classes for everyone to enter, no matter what the mods are. You don't have to hit the brakes to let off. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> I've done it a thousand times, and so has every other bracket racer. If the minimum required MPH is 110 and I've been running 115 all day, then that gives me 5 MPH to play with. You can make all of the rules you want, but you will not stop sandbagging 100%. You can make it harder, but you can't eliminate it without having an "official" push the pedal for me. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">
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Re: NFRA: Bolt-on class? Hmmm, I ran EFI 14 at NMCA Bowling Green this year and hit the brakes pretty hard every pass (car was capable of 13.80's at the time). I made it to the semi-finals and no one ever said a word to me.
I think every rule you put on this class is going to result in less and less participation. At the point you've got it to now, it's going to be more trouble enforcing than it's worth. Maybe you should just go back to the heads-up format plan and worry about teching "carefully placed" mods.
I hope they still keep a bracket class, though.
I think every rule you put on this class is going to result in less and less participation. At the point you've got it to now, it's going to be more trouble enforcing than it's worth. Maybe you should just go back to the heads-up format plan and worry about teching "carefully placed" mods.
I hope they still keep a bracket class, though.