Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars:
02-20-2003, 09:02 PM
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Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: The IHRA allows you to run up to 11.50 without a bar.
I going to try an put pressure on the NHRA to ease the rollbar requirements on late model cars. If you feel the same way, please write them a letter (email at bottom):
Here is the letter I wrote to the NHRA Technical Staff:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Greetings,
Is time to re-evaluate the safety requirements on newer sportscars?
Back when I started racing (1975), cars that ran 11.99 and quicker were mostly trailer cars. The cars racing back then (Mostly late 60's muscle) had no air-bags, no door supports, no crush zones, etc. These cars are the basis for the current regulations.
Fast forward to 2003. We recently bought a 2002 Corvette Z06. With just tires and a muffler, we are running 11.9x at 1600' DA. Is this car safe? I contend that I'd rather wreck in a 2002 Corvette Hardtop than a 1969 Camaro with a rollbar. The new Corvette Z06 (and other cars), have:
Active Handling - to straighten the car if it tries to go sideways. Not
traction control, it has both.
Built-in Rollbar - The roof has a large dia oblong steel support hoop that is integral to the frame (pic on request).
Airbags - Good for breaking your nose.
Manually and automatically locking seatbelt - You can lock the seatbelt by pulling it out, or it will do so automatically on g-force.
3080lbs - Less momentum at impact.
Killer Anti-lock Brakes - More than 1g can be exerted with minimal force.
Crush zones - absorbs impact.
Auto Fuel Shutoff - fire safety.
Door support bars - to reduce side impact injuries.
The Corvette isn't the only car with such significant safety equipment, many new HiPo cars are similar in design. Much of these factory improvements address the safety concerns that were the reason for the rules to begin with. Some roadracing track days allow the Corvette hardtops and the Viper hardtops to run without the normally required rollbar. And the IHRA (?) allows cars to run up to 11.50 without the bar.
Why should the rules be changed for late model cars? Because few people are going to put a rollbar in a brand-new stock automobile (warranty concerns), and it eliminates them from participating in this sport. I'm not saying that you can't get injured at 11.99 in a late-model car, I'm saying that the existing safety features that comes with them exceeds the current minimum safety requirement of an older car with the correct NHRA safety equipment.
I request that we be allowed to run late model sportscars that are equipped with built-in rollbars (1998+ Corvette Hardtop and Coupe, Hardtop Vipers, Hardtop Ferrari's, etc) up to 11.50 before the requirement kicks in.
Do a test period of one year and evaluate the results. I believe you will find no higher incidence of injury between 1960-70 Rollbar cars in the 11 second bracket and late model "factory rollbar" cars.
Patrick "McRat" McSwain
SCCA Solo2 CSCC #58
Hobby Dragracer - NHRA "Street-Legal" regular at CalSpeedway.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you believe like I do, please write a brief letter to:
techdept@nhra.com
I going to try an put pressure on the NHRA to ease the rollbar requirements on late model cars. If you feel the same way, please write them a letter (email at bottom):
Here is the letter I wrote to the NHRA Technical Staff:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Greetings,
Is time to re-evaluate the safety requirements on newer sportscars?
Back when I started racing (1975), cars that ran 11.99 and quicker were mostly trailer cars. The cars racing back then (Mostly late 60's muscle) had no air-bags, no door supports, no crush zones, etc. These cars are the basis for the current regulations.
Fast forward to 2003. We recently bought a 2002 Corvette Z06. With just tires and a muffler, we are running 11.9x at 1600' DA. Is this car safe? I contend that I'd rather wreck in a 2002 Corvette Hardtop than a 1969 Camaro with a rollbar. The new Corvette Z06 (and other cars), have:
Active Handling - to straighten the car if it tries to go sideways. Not
traction control, it has both.
Built-in Rollbar - The roof has a large dia oblong steel support hoop that is integral to the frame (pic on request).
Airbags - Good for breaking your nose.
Manually and automatically locking seatbelt - You can lock the seatbelt by pulling it out, or it will do so automatically on g-force.
3080lbs - Less momentum at impact.
Killer Anti-lock Brakes - More than 1g can be exerted with minimal force.
Crush zones - absorbs impact.
Auto Fuel Shutoff - fire safety.
Door support bars - to reduce side impact injuries.
The Corvette isn't the only car with such significant safety equipment, many new HiPo cars are similar in design. Much of these factory improvements address the safety concerns that were the reason for the rules to begin with. Some roadracing track days allow the Corvette hardtops and the Viper hardtops to run without the normally required rollbar. And the IHRA (?) allows cars to run up to 11.50 without the bar.
Why should the rules be changed for late model cars? Because few people are going to put a rollbar in a brand-new stock automobile (warranty concerns), and it eliminates them from participating in this sport. I'm not saying that you can't get injured at 11.99 in a late-model car, I'm saying that the existing safety features that comes with them exceeds the current minimum safety requirement of an older car with the correct NHRA safety equipment.
I request that we be allowed to run late model sportscars that are equipped with built-in rollbars (1998+ Corvette Hardtop and Coupe, Hardtop Vipers, Hardtop Ferrari's, etc) up to 11.50 before the requirement kicks in.
Do a test period of one year and evaluate the results. I believe you will find no higher incidence of injury between 1960-70 Rollbar cars in the 11 second bracket and late model "factory rollbar" cars.
Patrick "McRat" McSwain
SCCA Solo2 CSCC #58
Hobby Dragracer - NHRA "Street-Legal" regular at CalSpeedway.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you believe like I do, please write a brief letter to:
techdept@nhra.com
02-20-2003, 10:46 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: That was very well written. The only thing I have to say is that you mentioned the traction control/active handling in your reasoning. However as most everyone knows those systems are surely not active when drag racing.
But I totally agree with you. I am hoping to be down in the 11s sometime this summer, but I am very hesitant to put a roll bar in my car.
But I totally agree with you. I am hoping to be down in the 11s sometime this summer, but I am very hesitant to put a roll bar in my car.
02-20-2003, 11:03 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ClassicCollector:
<strong> ...those systems are surely not active when drag racing.
.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks.
Actually the Active Handling on the Vette's doesn't affect your ET's at all. I've run both ways. But if you get sideways, it will straighten the car in the direction the steering wheel is pointed at. It's pretty slick.
<strong> ...those systems are surely not active when drag racing.
.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks.
Actually the Active Handling on the Vette's doesn't affect your ET's at all. I've run both ways. But if you get sideways, it will straighten the car in the direction the steering wheel is pointed at. It's pretty slick.
02-21-2003, 07:40 AM
#5
Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: I'm a firm believer in what your trying to do, and I will send off an e-mail to them also. But I think we need a LARGE number of people to contact them to even get thier attention. If anyone has any ideas on how we could do an online petition to get all the members of this site together,that might be effective.
02-21-2003, 07:43 AM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: Good luck. Safety rules keep on getting stricter these days it seems like. Its mostly due to the faster street cars and recent wrecks and deaths that influence the decisions.
02-21-2003, 08:05 AM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: I personally think the rules are important for our safety. Watch a low 11 second car crash at the top of fourth and you'll see what I mean...
Chris
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02-21-2003, 09:18 AM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: The first sentence is off. I think your missing a word for it to make sense IMHO.
Otherwise it sounds good.
Otherwise it sounds good.
02-21-2003, 10:41 AM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Chris ARE 360:
<strong> I personally think the rules are important for our safety. Watch a low 11 second car crash at the top of fourth and you'll see what I mean...
Chris </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not "anti-safety", I just feel that since new cars are starting to run high 11's, they should make an allowance for the existing safety that is installed at the factory.
When they originally made the 11.99 break, they were trying to separate modified drag cars from street cars. It no longer serves that purpose.
Putting a second rollbar in cars that are factory equipped might be safer, but so would requiring all cars at all speeds to run tubular NASCAR frames. Where do you draw the line at "reasonable" safety precautions?
Do you believe that the hydroformed 1-pc rollbar/frame in a Vette is weaker than a bolted in rollbar?
I contend that a hard-top LS1 Fbody is just a roll-safe as a 1st Gen Camaro with a bar in it, and the Vettes and Vipers are actually safer.
Why does the IHRA think it's safe to 11.50?
It's time for the NHRA to at least review the newer cars. Not everyone is racing a 1970 Chevelle anymore. Things have changed. If they have data that indicates the new cars are no safer than the old cars, I'd like to see it.
<strong> I personally think the rules are important for our safety. Watch a low 11 second car crash at the top of fourth and you'll see what I mean...
Chris </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not "anti-safety", I just feel that since new cars are starting to run high 11's, they should make an allowance for the existing safety that is installed at the factory.
When they originally made the 11.99 break, they were trying to separate modified drag cars from street cars. It no longer serves that purpose.
Putting a second rollbar in cars that are factory equipped might be safer, but so would requiring all cars at all speeds to run tubular NASCAR frames. Where do you draw the line at "reasonable" safety precautions?
Do you believe that the hydroformed 1-pc rollbar/frame in a Vette is weaker than a bolted in rollbar?
I contend that a hard-top LS1 Fbody is just a roll-safe as a 1st Gen Camaro with a bar in it, and the Vettes and Vipers are actually safer.
Why does the IHRA think it's safe to 11.50?
It's time for the NHRA to at least review the newer cars. Not everyone is racing a 1970 Chevelle anymore. Things have changed. If they have data that indicates the new cars are no safer than the old cars, I'd like to see it.
02-21-2003, 02:00 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: **** it. Why not just have you sign a waiver saying you refuse to comply to the safety rules and the track owners are not liable for anything that happens.
Rollcages and helmets can cause more injuries if not done properly. The biggest concern is people running driveline components and tires that cant handle the power. This could potentially cause an accident with the racer in the other lane.
Rollcages and helmets can cause more injuries if not done properly. The biggest concern is people running driveline components and tires that cant handle the power. This could potentially cause an accident with the racer in the other lane.
02-21-2003, 06:07 PM
#12
Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: I've brought this up before & I'm sure someone will disagree but I think the break for a rollbar should be based on MPH not ET. How fast(mph) your going when/if you roll it makes a difference. How quick (ET) you got to that point doesn't. Yes I know the arguement is that the quicker(ET) your car is the more likely it is you will lose it & roll it.I don't buy that arguement in the 11.99 to 11.50 range & obviously IHRA doesn't either.
02-21-2003, 08:29 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: i agree with that last post. especially with all the fwd stuff and the racers who arent primarily interested in drag racing like supras and the few ferraris and things. ive seen supras running barely fast enough e.t wise to need a bar but the mph is enough to get them kicked out for not having their 135mph license.
02-21-2003, 08:58 PM
#14
Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: I understand Colonels thinking. Everyone does unsafe things.
I also see that nobody that has had work done at my shop has responded. I wont be part of a customer not having the proper safety equipment IF I can help it.
I dont know if the 4th gen f-body guys realize that THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement.
I also see that nobody that has had work done at my shop has responded. I wont be part of a customer not having the proper safety equipment IF I can help it.
I dont know if the 4th gen f-body guys realize that THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement.
02-21-2003, 09:16 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MADMAN:
<strong> . . . I also see that nobody that has had work done at my shop has responded. I wont be part of a customer not having the proper safety equipment IF I can help it. . . . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's one response from someone who has -
Though an opinion, I am not a fan of trying to reduce safety equipment whatsoever. We are all speed/power junkies, and love the thrills, but you need to be alive to enjoy the thrills. Somehow the idea of running headfirst (literally??) into a wall at 120+ mph with only factory safety equipment does not leave a very safe feeling in me.
Part of why I have such a strong opinion on this is being a pathologist's kid. When I was in 8th grade, my father brought me into the hospital to show me the results of a car crash when the passenger (in this case) had not worn a seatbelt. That was truly disgusting/horrifying, and not something I can easily forget. Been very **** about safety ever since then.
<strong> . . . I also see that nobody that has had work done at my shop has responded. I wont be part of a customer not having the proper safety equipment IF I can help it. . . . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's one response from someone who has -
Though an opinion, I am not a fan of trying to reduce safety equipment whatsoever. We are all speed/power junkies, and love the thrills, but you need to be alive to enjoy the thrills. Somehow the idea of running headfirst (literally??) into a wall at 120+ mph with only factory safety equipment does not leave a very safe feeling in me.
Part of why I have such a strong opinion on this is being a pathologist's kid. When I was in 8th grade, my father brought me into the hospital to show me the results of a car crash when the passenger (in this case) had not worn a seatbelt. That was truly disgusting/horrifying, and not something I can easily forget. Been very **** about safety ever since then.
02-21-2003, 10:58 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MADMAN:
<strong> THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, but on hard top cars, there is a 3 layer steel top. There is also a "built in" rollcage that runs up the b piller, and down near the rear fender by the speaker panel.
Do I think that they need lower the rules? Nope. One person getting kill is all its gonna take. Its all a matter of probability. If you go 10 years with out someone dieing, the next 10 are not going to be as lucky. Its bound to happen. Not something nice to think about, but still, a cage is not that hard to add. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
<strong> THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, but on hard top cars, there is a 3 layer steel top. There is also a "built in" rollcage that runs up the b piller, and down near the rear fender by the speaker panel.
Do I think that they need lower the rules? Nope. One person getting kill is all its gonna take. Its all a matter of probability. If you go 10 years with out someone dieing, the next 10 are not going to be as lucky. Its bound to happen. Not something nice to think about, but still, a cage is not that hard to add. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
02-21-2003, 11:27 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MADMAN:
<strong> I dont know if the 4th gen f-body guys realize that THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For being a builder of the fastest fourth-gens you sure dont know much about their roof construction.
To everybody else, while the roof is not JUST fiberglass, its not exactly a roll bar either.
<img src="http://c5.kicks-***.net/~eclark/images/fbird-after19990206/FBIRD3.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://c5.kicks-***.net/~eclark/images/fbird-after19990206/FBIRD2.jpg" alt=" - " />
I walked away with no harm, but looking at the damage I'm glad I didnt have a passenger.
Eric
<small>[ February 21, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: 66ImpalaLT1 ]</small>
<strong> I dont know if the 4th gen f-body guys realize that THE ROOF OF YOUR CARS IS FIBERGLASS!!!!! But hey thats cool its only my head that just went SPLATTT on the pavement. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For being a builder of the fastest fourth-gens you sure dont know much about their roof construction.
To everybody else, while the roof is not JUST fiberglass, its not exactly a roll bar either.
<img src="http://c5.kicks-***.net/~eclark/images/fbird-after19990206/FBIRD3.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://c5.kicks-***.net/~eclark/images/fbird-after19990206/FBIRD2.jpg" alt=" - " />
I walked away with no harm, but looking at the damage I'm glad I didnt have a passenger.
Eric
<small>[ February 21, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: 66ImpalaLT1 ]</small>
02-22-2003, 12:59 AM
#18
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: I agree. I feel safe enough in my '02 Z running 11.8s with no rollcage. Heck, I felt safe enough running 10s in my '00 with no rollcage but that's just me. I'm not saying the next guy should do it. I don't wear a helmet when riding my Harley in Florida either but I do admit it's pretty stupid not to do so. (Too bad I'm addicted to alot of stupid acts.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
02-22-2003, 01:33 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: Looking at that Firebird, I can't tell for sure, but it LOOKS like I could fit a NHRA 6pt bar in it after it wrecked. Luckily you didn't split your head open on the rollbar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Driving a car on the street without a helmet is a big risk. Most automotive fatalities are head injuries. Adding an interior rollbar actually increases the risk.
So having a 11.50-11.99 car on the street is a hazard without a helmet.
One thing I haven't heard yet is:
"Pat, you are wrong! A 1970 Camaro running 12.0 is just as safe as a late model car running 12.0, if not safer!"
Of course you won't. I've seen 1960's cars break into pieces when rolled. Body separates from frame. Cars hit in the rear burst into flames.
Carbs overflow and burst into flames. Brakes overheat at the big end and run off the end of the track. Steering wheel breaks drivers ribs. Doors pop open on impact.
If a new car is only safe with a second rollbar (Vette's and Viper's), then no pre-1985's should be allowed on the track. They are far more dangerous. It's not safety. It's resistance to change.
Why was the original break set at 12.00? Because back then, a 12.00 car was a trailer car. It was not to be driven on the street, and often had acid-dipped body panels and holes drilled in the frame to reduce weight. Only a lap belt (if any) came from the factory. Gas tanks were vented into the atmosphere and were not protected. They NEEDED to improve the safety of those cars.
I contend that the reasons that caused the need for the safety equipment in the first place have been remedied from the factory now.
I wish the IHRA had a track in the area.
There are also numerous NHRA tracks that kinda ignore the 11.99 rule, but mostly in the East where the cars are apparently built safer.
BTW - I am not anti-safety. I ride with a helmet on the street and dirt (bikes), I obey all safety rules. But if running a daily driver stock car 114 mph requires a SECOND rollbar... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Driving a car on the street without a helmet is a big risk. Most automotive fatalities are head injuries. Adding an interior rollbar actually increases the risk.
So having a 11.50-11.99 car on the street is a hazard without a helmet.
One thing I haven't heard yet is:
"Pat, you are wrong! A 1970 Camaro running 12.0 is just as safe as a late model car running 12.0, if not safer!"
Of course you won't. I've seen 1960's cars break into pieces when rolled. Body separates from frame. Cars hit in the rear burst into flames.
Carbs overflow and burst into flames. Brakes overheat at the big end and run off the end of the track. Steering wheel breaks drivers ribs. Doors pop open on impact.
If a new car is only safe with a second rollbar (Vette's and Viper's), then no pre-1985's should be allowed on the track. They are far more dangerous. It's not safety. It's resistance to change.
Why was the original break set at 12.00? Because back then, a 12.00 car was a trailer car. It was not to be driven on the street, and often had acid-dipped body panels and holes drilled in the frame to reduce weight. Only a lap belt (if any) came from the factory. Gas tanks were vented into the atmosphere and were not protected. They NEEDED to improve the safety of those cars.
I contend that the reasons that caused the need for the safety equipment in the first place have been remedied from the factory now.
I wish the IHRA had a track in the area.
There are also numerous NHRA tracks that kinda ignore the 11.99 rule, but mostly in the East where the cars are apparently built safer.
BTW - I am not anti-safety. I ride with a helmet on the street and dirt (bikes), I obey all safety rules. But if running a daily driver stock car 114 mph requires a SECOND rollbar... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
02-22-2003, 01:56 PM
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Re: Let's petition the NHRA to ease the Rollbar rule on late model cars: Safety should come first, but I never thought about driving around with a rollcage on the street and someone hitting me. Smashing your head into a rollbar wouldn't be a cool thing.
PS
I don't have a cage because it hardly goes to the track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
PS
I don't have a cage because it hardly goes to the track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />