Anyone ever race Stock/Super Stock with an LSx based car?
07-05-2008, 11:19 PM
#1
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Anyone ever race Stock/Super Stock with an LSx based car? Just curious if anyone has done that here. It seems like when you watch these classes they are all old cars. Has anyone done it with a LSx based car? What were some of the specs of the engine, I know most S/SS cars stay pretty tight lipped but can you tell a little? And if you did were you competitive at all?
07-06-2008, 10:37 AM
#2
There have been a number of successful LS1 F-bodies campaigned in NHRA Stock Eliminator. Among the notables have been Al Corda (nine ninety-? ET several years ago), Randy Wilkes (past World Champion), Amy Faulk, Ryan McClanahan (has run in the 9.70s with his WS-6 in the new class, AA/SA), Jim Waldo (the only stick shift LS1 I can recall), plus a slew of other cars that have been competitive. When the cars initially appeared, the horse power was set at the factory rating (305 for flat hoods and 320 for Ram Air). Over the years, the exceptional performances have resulted in higher and higher horsepower ratings. Currently they are rated at 369 hp for the flat hood and 364 hp for Ram Air. The horsepower ratings assigned by NHRA are reflective of the relative performances displayed by the cars in national event competition. They are evaluated biennially and, when a combination shows evidence of dominating a particular class, adjustments are made. Don't pay too much attention to those numbers. The important fact is that there are a lot of LS1 cars out there and the good ones are very competitive.
Super Stock participation is less definitive. Fuel injection classes have never caught the imagination of the bulk of S/S competitors. At this time, as far as I know, there are three or four LS1 cars on the track. Bo Kenney was the #1 qualifier in Super Stock at the recent national event held at Norwalk, Ohio. His car is an 08 Cobalt with an LS1 powerplant running in GT/AA. 9.19 is more than respectable for that class. At the same event, Monty Bogan ran an LS1 Firebird in SS/FA and qualified #6. Al Corda has an LS1 Firebird in SS/IA and another car, previously owned by Bo Kenney and now by Mike Pruss of Red Deer, Alberta, is currently qualified in the #2 position at the IHRA national event being held in Edmonton.
The cars are out there and they run very well when the money is spent in adequate preparation.
Super Stock participation is less definitive. Fuel injection classes have never caught the imagination of the bulk of S/S competitors. At this time, as far as I know, there are three or four LS1 cars on the track. Bo Kenney was the #1 qualifier in Super Stock at the recent national event held at Norwalk, Ohio. His car is an 08 Cobalt with an LS1 powerplant running in GT/AA. 9.19 is more than respectable for that class. At the same event, Monty Bogan ran an LS1 Firebird in SS/FA and qualified #6. Al Corda has an LS1 Firebird in SS/IA and another car, previously owned by Bo Kenney and now by Mike Pruss of Red Deer, Alberta, is currently qualified in the #2 position at the IHRA national event being held in Edmonton.
The cars are out there and they run very well when the money is spent in adequate preparation.
07-06-2008, 09:51 PM
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And plenty of it spent...lol. Great post cnorton. Al and Amy were the first ones that came to my mind when I read the OP. That yellow thing flies! By far, my favorite two classes at any divisional/national event.
07-07-2008, 11:35 AM
#4
There have been a number of successful LS1 F-bodies campaigned in NHRA Stock Eliminator. Among the notables have been Al Corda (nine ninety-? ET several years ago), Randy Wilkes (past World Champion), Amy Faulk, Ryan McClanahan (has run in the 9.70s with his WS-6 in the new class, AA/SA), Jim Waldo (the only stick shift LS1 I can recall), plus a slew of other cars that have been competitive. When the cars initially appeared, the horse power was set at the factory rating (305 for flat hoods and 320 for Ram Air). Over the years, the exceptional performances have resulted in higher and higher horsepower ratings. Currently they are rated at 369 hp for the flat hood and 364 hp for Ram Air. The horsepower ratings assigned by NHRA are reflective of the relative performances displayed by the cars in national event competition. They are evaluated biennially and, when a combination shows evidence of dominating a particular class, adjustments are made. Don't pay too much attention to those numbers. The important fact is that there are a lot of LS1 cars out there and the good ones are very competitive.
Super Stock participation is less definitive. Fuel injection classes have never caught the imagination of the bulk of S/S competitors. At this time, as far as I know, there are three or four LS1 cars on the track. Bo Kenney was the #1 qualifier in Super Stock at the recent national event held at Norwalk, Ohio. His car is an 08 Cobalt with an LS1 powerplant running in GT/AA. 9.19 is more than respectable for that class. At the same event, Monty Bogan ran an LS1 Firebird in SS/FA and qualified #6. Al Corda has an LS1 Firebird in SS/IA and another car, previously owned by Bo Kenney and now by Mike Pruss of Red Deer, Alberta, is currently qualified in the #2 position at the IHRA national event being held in Edmonton.
The cars are out there and they run very well when the money is spent in adequate preparation.
Super Stock participation is less definitive. Fuel injection classes have never caught the imagination of the bulk of S/S competitors. At this time, as far as I know, there are three or four LS1 cars on the track. Bo Kenney was the #1 qualifier in Super Stock at the recent national event held at Norwalk, Ohio. His car is an 08 Cobalt with an LS1 powerplant running in GT/AA. 9.19 is more than respectable for that class. At the same event, Monty Bogan ran an LS1 Firebird in SS/FA and qualified #6. Al Corda has an LS1 Firebird in SS/IA and another car, previously owned by Bo Kenney and now by Mike Pruss of Red Deer, Alberta, is currently qualified in the #2 position at the IHRA national event being held in Edmonton.
The cars are out there and they run very well when the money is spent in adequate preparation.
Why would a flat hood be rated at more power than a ram air hood?
I went to the Norwalk race, was one of those firebirds red? I was walking through the pits and he had his hood up so I went to check it out. Engine bay is clean as hell, couldnt tell what intake he was running tho.
07-07-2008, 10:52 PM
#6
Why would a flat hood be rated at more power than a ram air hood?
I went to the Norwalk race, was one of those firebirds red? I was walking through the pits and he had his hood up so I went to check it out. Engine bay is clean as hell, couldnt tell what intake he was running tho.
I went to the Norwalk race, was one of those firebirds red? I was walking through the pits and he had his hood up so I went to check it out. Engine bay is clean as hell, couldnt tell what intake he was running tho.
1. NHRA assigns horsepower to combinations based on the times recorded at recent national events. As Ram Air cars laid down some big numbers, the horsepower rating on that combination went up. When the rating went up, people changed to the flat hood. Then, those cars ran fast and their rating went up. There has been a see-saw battle going on for several years and right now, the flat hood seems to be favored. Look for the Ram Air hoods to become more popular again. Doesn't always make much sense but that's just the way NHRA works.
2. (This is the part of the answer that usually draws criticism.) The Ram Air hood really doesn't amount to much in terms of performance. We've run the cars both ways and while there is a popular belief that if something looks good, it will also help performance, that doesn't necessarily hold true in this case. The fact is that the difference, if there is a difference at all, is so miniscule that it is difficult to find on the time slip. Next time you're at an NHRA event, check out the LT1 and LS1 stockers. It is practically impossible to find a car that has all the ducting for Ram Air (either Firebird WS6 or Camaro SS) in place. If it was worth anything, those guys would run it.
Disclaimer: the above statement is supported by extensive testing and comparison. It may not correspond to that which you believe or that which you would like to believe. Sorry.
3. I think the red car you saw at Norwalk was probably the one Monty Bogan was driving. You won't recognize the intake because, in Super Stock there is no restriction of the manifold as long as the throttle body stays in the same relative position. i.e. at the front, not in the middle or elsewhere. I suspect that Monty (his car is owned by the same guy that was running in GT/AA) has a Wilson Manifold, hand-made sheetmetal.
4. It's easy to make a clean engine compartment when you can remove the stuff that really gets in the way in a street driven car. At the same time, an F.I car usually has a lot of wiring that you don't find on a carbureted car.
Cheers,
c
07-08-2008, 12:13 PM
#7
2. (This is the part of the answer that usually draws criticism.) The Ram Air hood really doesn't amount to much in terms of performance. We've run the cars both ways and while there is a popular belief that if something looks good, it will also help performance, that doesn't necessarily hold true in this case. The fact is that the difference, if there is a difference at all, is so miniscule that it is difficult to find on the time slip. Next time you're at an NHRA event, check out the LT1 and LS1 stockers. It is practically impossible to find a car that has all the ducting for Ram Air (either Firebird WS6 or Camaro SS) in place. If it was worth anything, those guys would run it.
3. I think the red car you saw at Norwalk was probably the one Monty Bogan was driving. You won't recognize the intake because, in Super Stock there is no restriction of the manifold as long as the throttle body stays in the same relative position. i.e. at the front, not in the middle or elsewhere. I suspect that Monty (his car is owned by the same guy that was running in GT/AA) has a Wilson Manifold, hand-made sheetmetal.
3. I think the red car you saw at Norwalk was probably the one Monty Bogan was driving. You won't recognize the intake because, in Super Stock there is no restriction of the manifold as long as the throttle body stays in the same relative position. i.e. at the front, not in the middle or elsewhere. I suspect that Monty (his car is owned by the same guy that was running in GT/AA) has a Wilson Manifold, hand-made sheetmetal.
I would have to agree that the ram air hood and flat hood differences are minimal. At least the power ratings for each are pretty close. I wonder how close the indexs are for each? This stuff gets pretty complicated when you start looking into it more.
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07-08-2008, 01:32 PM
#8
The indexes are based on a ratio that factors in the amount of weight a car carries with the horsepower rating. It is possible to find LS1 Firebirds and Camaros running in AA/SA, A/SA, B/SA, C/SA, and D/SA. As of June 3, the fastest time recorded by an LS1 in AA/SA this year was 9.893 by Ryan McClanahan at the Winternationals. The index for AA/SA is 10.90. That is the sixth fastest run in that class this year.
Randy Wilkes has run 10.063 in A/SA on an 11.30 index. That was the fastest run recorded in A/SA this year. Ryan McClanahan has run 10.127 in A/SA. Most Firebirds won't be competitive in AA/SA because most of them were not built light enough to make the minimum weight in the class.
Sam Pouciau ran 10.362 in B/SA on an 11.55 index. There are quite a few cars in that class that have gone faster. Sam's car is a Camaro.
Edmund Richardson has the fastest LS1 car in C/SA so far. He has run 10.585 on an 11.70 index.
Amy Faulk has run 10.719 on an 11.85 index in D/SA. With a flat hood her Trans Am is required to weigh 3675 pounds including her own weight. For sake of comparison, Ryan McClanahan's car is required to weigh 2900 pounds including his weight.
You can see that there is a significant weight differential between cars that may look the same sitting on the starting line. Just calculating car weights and optimum classification for cars in NHRA Stock Eliminator can be a real challenge.
c
Randy Wilkes has run 10.063 in A/SA on an 11.30 index. That was the fastest run recorded in A/SA this year. Ryan McClanahan has run 10.127 in A/SA. Most Firebirds won't be competitive in AA/SA because most of them were not built light enough to make the minimum weight in the class.
Sam Pouciau ran 10.362 in B/SA on an 11.55 index. There are quite a few cars in that class that have gone faster. Sam's car is a Camaro.
Edmund Richardson has the fastest LS1 car in C/SA so far. He has run 10.585 on an 11.70 index.
Amy Faulk has run 10.719 on an 11.85 index in D/SA. With a flat hood her Trans Am is required to weigh 3675 pounds including her own weight. For sake of comparison, Ryan McClanahan's car is required to weigh 2900 pounds including his weight.
You can see that there is a significant weight differential between cars that may look the same sitting on the starting line. Just calculating car weights and optimum classification for cars in NHRA Stock Eliminator can be a real challenge.
c
07-08-2008, 07:35 PM
#10
Chuck,
Nice explanation. Guys outside of Stock and SS have a tough time understanding. At least the way I tell it. It is probably me.
The SS guys do not favor the LS because it came out at 305 HP and that is when it remains. There are other combos that are much more favorable. The LT1 is more favorable at 279 and there are older 327 and 400 combos that have the capability to build a bunch of HP but are factored low and do not have to carry as much weight. The LS maybe romantic but if you have to load it down with weight or move it to a higher class it takes the fun out of it.
The LS in stock is another story. It came out at 305 flat hood and 320 ram air. Now they are at 364 ram air 369 flat hood. The flat hood guys went out and went too fast to often. When you go too fast or the engine combo average is above a certain number you get the honor of carring more weight or moving up a class. Another thing that takes 1/2 a day to explain.
Bottom line is some guys pick the combos to go fast, others pick the ones who they think are neat to run. We run both LTs and LSs in stock and LTs in SS. You have to work at it to keep them fast but a few guys hanging it out at the wrong time can cause you to have to work harder. We did it once. We were sneaking up on a record and went 1.401 under the index. You are allowed to go 1.399 without automatic HP. Yes you get penalized for going too fast. That will consume the other 1/2 of the day explaining.
Scaz
Nice explanation. Guys outside of Stock and SS have a tough time understanding. At least the way I tell it. It is probably me.
The SS guys do not favor the LS because it came out at 305 HP and that is when it remains. There are other combos that are much more favorable. The LT1 is more favorable at 279 and there are older 327 and 400 combos that have the capability to build a bunch of HP but are factored low and do not have to carry as much weight. The LS maybe romantic but if you have to load it down with weight or move it to a higher class it takes the fun out of it.
The LS in stock is another story. It came out at 305 flat hood and 320 ram air. Now they are at 364 ram air 369 flat hood. The flat hood guys went out and went too fast to often. When you go too fast or the engine combo average is above a certain number you get the honor of carring more weight or moving up a class. Another thing that takes 1/2 a day to explain.
Bottom line is some guys pick the combos to go fast, others pick the ones who they think are neat to run. We run both LTs and LSs in stock and LTs in SS. You have to work at it to keep them fast but a few guys hanging it out at the wrong time can cause you to have to work harder. We did it once. We were sneaking up on a record and went 1.401 under the index. You are allowed to go 1.399 without automatic HP. Yes you get penalized for going too fast. That will consume the other 1/2 of the day explaining.
Scaz
07-08-2008, 09:33 PM
#11
The indexes are based on a ratio that factors in the amount of weight a car carries with the horsepower rating. It is possible to find LS1 Firebirds and Camaros running in AA/SA, A/SA, B/SA, C/SA, and D/SA. As of June 3, the fastest time recorded by an LS1 in AA/SA this year was 9.893 by Ryan McClanahan at the Winternationals. The index for AA/SA is 10.90. That is the sixth fastest run in that class this year.
Randy Wilkes has run 10.063 in A/SA on an 11.30 index. That was the fastest run recorded in A/SA this year. Ryan McClanahan has run 10.127 in A/SA. Most Firebirds won't be competitive in AA/SA because most of them were not built light enough to make the minimum weight in the class.
Sam Pouciau ran 10.362 in B/SA on an 11.55 index. There are quite a few cars in that class that have gone faster. Sam's car is a Camaro.
Edmund Richardson has the fastest LS1 car in C/SA so far. He has run 10.585 on an 11.70 index.
Amy Faulk has run 10.719 on an 11.85 index in D/SA. With a flat hood her Trans Am is required to weigh 3675 pounds including her own weight. For sake of comparison, Ryan McClanahan's car is required to weigh 2900 pounds including his weight.
You can see that there is a significant weight differential between cars that may look the same sitting on the starting line. Just calculating car weights and optimum classification for cars in NHRA Stock Eliminator can be a real challenge.
c
Randy Wilkes has run 10.063 in A/SA on an 11.30 index. That was the fastest run recorded in A/SA this year. Ryan McClanahan has run 10.127 in A/SA. Most Firebirds won't be competitive in AA/SA because most of them were not built light enough to make the minimum weight in the class.
Sam Pouciau ran 10.362 in B/SA on an 11.55 index. There are quite a few cars in that class that have gone faster. Sam's car is a Camaro.
Edmund Richardson has the fastest LS1 car in C/SA so far. He has run 10.585 on an 11.70 index.
Amy Faulk has run 10.719 on an 11.85 index in D/SA. With a flat hood her Trans Am is required to weigh 3675 pounds including her own weight. For sake of comparison, Ryan McClanahan's car is required to weigh 2900 pounds including his weight.
You can see that there is a significant weight differential between cars that may look the same sitting on the starting line. Just calculating car weights and optimum classification for cars in NHRA Stock Eliminator can be a real challenge.
c
So the differences between all those classes is just weight?
07-08-2008, 10:06 PM
#12
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Well, Kevin Helms is our track manager so anytime I have a question, he's the guy I go to. There's so many variables that come into play with each class, I lose track...lol. And a good stocker engine can cost quite a bit...say a Woodro Josey motor. Don't even talk about Super Stock. You gotta bring some serious coins to stay competitive. The faster cars usually run 1.2 to 1.3 under the index. That helps when you run class. I'll let Coach, Chuck or Scaz elaborate more on cost, if they will.
I always said that if I can hit the lottery, I'm going SS racing cause that's what it's gonna take...the lottery.
I always said that if I can hit the lottery, I'm going SS racing cause that's what it's gonna take...the lottery.
07-09-2008, 11:41 AM
#13
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I'm building my car right now for D/S. I can't wait to run it.
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
Last edited by TOSTO RACING; 07-09-2008 at 11:43 AM. Reason: added another pic
07-09-2008, 04:10 PM
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How far under is it gonna run? I saw the D/S index is 11.80. And is your brother gonna run the Firebird in class too?
Two good looking cars man. How much did you have to change or put back on the car for it to be class legal?
Two good looking cars man. How much did you have to change or put back on the car for it to be class legal?
07-09-2008, 05:59 PM
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Todd is not running stock.
I hope the car will run 10.90's for now ,but we'll see its my first shot at all this so I'm just wanting to have fun for now.
I basically took the car apart and reassembled it lol. Nothing is the same except the cage and color lol.
Its just about done too some wiring and thats about it.
I'll post up whenever we go to the track.
I hope the car will run 10.90's for now ,but we'll see its my first shot at all this so I'm just wanting to have fun for now.
I basically took the car apart and reassembled it lol. Nothing is the same except the cage and color lol.
Its just about done too some wiring and thats about it.
I'll post up whenever we go to the track.
07-09-2008, 07:03 PM
#16
I believe Woodro is retired from engine building, at least he was going to. He had a very serious crash. He went off the end of the track. I saw pictures of the car. It was a mess. I'm glad he is alright. He is the WJ of Stock.
Well a good Stocker is going to cost a good buck. We have sold a 1.10 under LT1 car already built for $27,000. It is cheaper to buy one built. Most guys get into Stock with a lower class car and then move up to faster cars. There are many combinations that are resonable to build.
A killer LT car will cost 50-60K to build if you get it right the first time. Add about 10K for an LS. We did the first new GTO in Stock. That chewed up some money. I can show you 5 torque converters on our shelf that are good but not great, another 4-5 cams, a stack of gears, and a crap load of other parts. It is never ending. Our team is very lucky and dedicated. We have a pretty fast LS Firebird that we are presently redoing to make it faster. Like I said never ending. You better have an understanding wife.
Tim, Let me know how you make out.
Scaz
Well a good Stocker is going to cost a good buck. We have sold a 1.10 under LT1 car already built for $27,000. It is cheaper to buy one built. Most guys get into Stock with a lower class car and then move up to faster cars. There are many combinations that are resonable to build.
A killer LT car will cost 50-60K to build if you get it right the first time. Add about 10K for an LS. We did the first new GTO in Stock. That chewed up some money. I can show you 5 torque converters on our shelf that are good but not great, another 4-5 cams, a stack of gears, and a crap load of other parts. It is never ending. Our team is very lucky and dedicated. We have a pretty fast LS Firebird that we are presently redoing to make it faster. Like I said never ending. You better have an understanding wife.
Tim, Let me know how you make out.
Scaz
Last edited by STOCK1090; 07-09-2008 at 07:31 PM. Reason: Spelling
07-09-2008, 07:07 PM
#17
That is essentially correct. Some of the cars are Camaros and some are Firebirds. The lightest shipping weights are Firebirds. Some have flat hoods and some have either SS or Ram Air hoods. Some are Trans Ams and some are Formulas. The engines are all factored the same.
If you'd like to explore the weirdness of the NHRA Classification Guide, PM me and I'll walk you through it. It's all online.
c
If you'd like to explore the weirdness of the NHRA Classification Guide, PM me and I'll walk you through it. It's all online.
c
07-09-2008, 09:39 PM
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Is there a dedicated blog online somewhere just for the Stockers? Just like this but nothing but Stockers or even Sportsman racing period. I could read that stuff all day long.
I hadn't heard that about Woodro. Hope he's recovering/ed well.
Tim, so you're gonna run D/S. That's a stick car then? I guess it would be now that I think about it. Otherwise, wouldn't the class be D/SA? Good luck with it. And I agree, it was the best damn episode ever...to this day.
I hadn't heard that about Woodro. Hope he's recovering/ed well.
Tim, so you're gonna run D/S. That's a stick car then? I guess it would be now that I think about it. Otherwise, wouldn't the class be D/SA? Good luck with it. And I agree, it was the best damn episode ever...to this day.
07-09-2008, 09:46 PM
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I'm building my car right now for D/S. I can't wait to run it.
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/fanzon...-28%2C+2008%29
Those stickers gonna pick up 1/4 sec?
