Dissappointing AFR 205 Results
10-15-2010, 08:29 PM
#81
10-16-2010, 01:02 AM
#85
10-16-2010, 01:39 AM
#87
You made more with stock heads than seems reasonable (as agreed by most of the more seasoned guys in this thread that have been around the chassis dyno frequently) and even with a combo mostly wrong for AFR heads you made over 450 RWHP with a 222 cam (a number most would be thrilled with). Trust me, that's a big number and ALL the money from the combination in question without a doubt and your car would have to be a car that dyno's well to get there (some do better than others on the chassis dyno).
Bottom line it doesn't really matter whether the dyno is average, stingy, generous, etc....the only thing that matters is what we gain or lose on the same dyno....no different than a flowbench. You simply need to test using the same calibration tool.
I assume your going to get in touch with me soon regarding everything in play here? PM or call me early next week and lets figure out a game plan so we can start a new thread titled "Extremely happy with AFR 205 results!!"
Seriously....get in touch so we can start the ball rolling....its going to take quite a bit of time without needless delay, especially if we are shuffling heads back and forth etc. and ordering a custom cam.
Thanks,
Tony
10-16-2010, 01:54 AM
#88
I'm sure a cam swap will make you more HP, since going bigger often times does. It maybe more money, time, and labor your have to spend tho.
10-16-2010, 02:05 AM
#89
How bad is the clutch? I would be interested to see the numbers from the clutch swap before a cam swap. I know that a rolling dyno isn't as hard on a clutch, but still if the clutch is bad enough you could be losing a lot power through it. 450HP is all that clutch can hold even if your motor is making more.
I'm sure a cam swap will make you more HP, since going bigger often times does. It maybe more money, time, and labor your have to spend tho.
I'm sure a cam swap will make you more HP, since going bigger often times does. It maybe more money, time, and labor your have to spend tho.
10-16-2010, 02:09 AM
#90
Honestly.....do you really think that dyno is stingy?....LOL
You made more with stock heads than seems reasonable (as agreed by most of the more seasoned guys in this thread that have been around the chassis dyno frequently) and even with a combo mostly wrong for AFR heads you made over 450 RWHP with a 222 cam (a number most would be thrilled with). Trust me, that's a big number and ALL the money from the combination in question without a doubt and your car would have to be a car that dyno's well to get there (some do better than others on the chassis dyno).
Bottom line it doesn't really matter whether the dyno is average, stingy, generous, etc....the only thing that matters is what we gain or lose on the same dyno....no different than a flowbench. You simply need to test using the same calibration tool.
I assume your going to get in touch with me soon regarding everything in play here? PM or call me early next week and lets figure out a game plan so we can start a new thread titled "Extremely happy with AFR 205 results!!"
Seriously....get in touch so we can start the ball rolling....its going to take quite a bit of time without needless delay, especially if we are shuffling heads back and forth etc. and ordering a custom cam.
Thanks,
Tony
You made more with stock heads than seems reasonable (as agreed by most of the more seasoned guys in this thread that have been around the chassis dyno frequently) and even with a combo mostly wrong for AFR heads you made over 450 RWHP with a 222 cam (a number most would be thrilled with). Trust me, that's a big number and ALL the money from the combination in question without a doubt and your car would have to be a car that dyno's well to get there (some do better than others on the chassis dyno).
Bottom line it doesn't really matter whether the dyno is average, stingy, generous, etc....the only thing that matters is what we gain or lose on the same dyno....no different than a flowbench. You simply need to test using the same calibration tool.
I assume your going to get in touch with me soon regarding everything in play here? PM or call me early next week and lets figure out a game plan so we can start a new thread titled "Extremely happy with AFR 205 results!!"
Seriously....get in touch so we can start the ball rolling....its going to take quite a bit of time without needless delay, especially if we are shuffling heads back and forth etc. and ordering a custom cam.
Thanks,
Tony
10-16-2010, 11:28 AM
#91
For comparison Advanced Induction got 430rwhp with ported 241's with a stock GTO
LS1 cam. And LS6 heads flow almost 260cfm, a FAST intake, headers, and 222 cam
its possible to see clost to 450 hp. Some motors are looser than others and dyno higher.
And he ran a best of 123mph on a weak clutch, the power is there. I wouldn't mind LS6 heads with a pocket port job and a Comp 222/228 cam on a 114lsa in my SS with a 3,600
stall.
LS1 cam. And LS6 heads flow almost 260cfm, a FAST intake, headers, and 222 cam
its possible to see clost to 450 hp. Some motors are looser than others and dyno higher.
And he ran a best of 123mph on a weak clutch, the power is there. I wouldn't mind LS6 heads with a pocket port job and a Comp 222/228 cam on a 114lsa in my SS with a 3,600
stall.
10-16-2010, 12:14 PM
#92
Here you go....
Dale copied my former 346 package to the letter but also added a slightly larger cam per my recommendation and also opted for my reworked AFR 205's versus out of the box like I ran on my combo which made 475 -480 RWHP with the AFR 224/228 cam.
His net results were very impressive....another example of how combination (right and wrong) means everything
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-500-rwhp.html
-Tony
Dale copied my former 346 package to the letter but also added a slightly larger cam per my recommendation and also opted for my reworked AFR 205's versus out of the box like I ran on my combo which made 475 -480 RWHP with the AFR 224/228 cam.
His net results were very impressive....another example of how combination (right and wrong) means everything
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-500-rwhp.html
-Tony
To be honest those numbers look inflated as some respected people on that post also think so. If all these AFR setups are making 475 to 500 rwhp well aren't there a ton of threads of guys posting their times. The cam isn't big enough to make 500rwhp. I want to see times not dyno numbers. Dyno's can and do get tweaked to show high numbers. And high numbers sell parts.
An LS3 with that combo maybe, but a 346?
10-16-2010, 01:03 PM
#93
To be honest those numbers look inflated as some respected people on that post also think so. If all these AFR setups are making 475 to 500 rwhp well aren't there a ton of threads of guys posting their times. The cam isn't big enough to make 500rwhp. I want to see times not dyno numbers. Dyno's can and do get tweaked to show high numbers. And high numbers sell parts.
An LS3 with that combo maybe, but a 346?
An LS3 with that combo maybe, but a 346?
Unfortunately Dale doesn't have alot of tracks in Canada and as far as I know he never intended to drag race it anyway.
What he wanted was ALOT of power in a very streetable package so he took a proven highly optimized combination that accomplished exactly that (my former 346 that made 552 HP at the crank and 475-483 RWHP on four different chassis dynos in two different States) and added my reworked 205's instead of out of the box 205's (typically found to be worth 12-15 RWHP) and also added a slightly larger camshaft with a 228 lobe versus a 224 intake lobe that I ran....easily worth another 6-9 ponies when discussing cams this small.
Do the math....
The problem is once again that most people fail to directly copy the recipe and as soon as you start swapping ingredients (or omitting them) the end results are not the same. I spent the better part of a year or so trying different headers, camshaft installed positions, rocker arms, manifolds, throttle bodies, not to mention lightening up the clutch and driveline components, adding an EWP, UDP, etc. etc.
Now Dale spent a good chunk of change to copy my package to the letter (I helped him with every detail) but we also opted to add the ported heads and slightly larger cam in an effort to make even more power. To be honest our thoughts at the time was the cam and ported heads would just help us nail the 480 figure with ease which was really his goal. Neither he or I even mentioned or discussed getting close to 500 RWHP but when you break it down in a logical fashion in a best case scenario why wasn't that a realistic target?? I know this, had I "Mamofied" my 205 heads and added the bigger cam to my personal combination without a doubt I would have nailed that number knowing the proven baseline I was starting with already (and it backed the number at the dragstrip btw).
http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/n...o_Run_4-15.mp4
Not to mention Dale also spent the better part of a year tuning and optimizing his package....alot more than most. I decided to shoot Dale a link to this thread....perhaps he may chime in himself if he has the time.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-16-2010 at 01:10 PM.
10-16-2010, 01:25 PM
#96
Unfortunately the engine "expired" (lucky number piston seven lost a chunk of its ring land) before I ever got the 10 second slip but it was certainly there waiting to be found!
-Tony
10-16-2010, 03:32 PM
#98
Tx's Tony! & Yes I will chirp a little! 
I really dislike those dyno run's. My tuning ability in the under curve area was very weak, just about one year ago.
Tony is one of those when he speaks you should pay attention individuals with respect to air flow. He shares willing & is available to anyone who wants to talk! Argue with him a little, he likes that!
The thread Tony link to covers a lot of ground, I won't regurgitate what was discussed there. There are key points I will mention though.
First a very well built 346 will produce in the area of 430 ft lbs, what you do with that & after that determines your peak HP.
Second, sanity checks! Many of you in this thread it is trap mph, myself it is somewhat different, airflow or what are similar vehicles are doing on that dyno. In the case of my dyno runs I checked many cars on that dyno day.....If I remember correctly a C6 Z06 stock dyno'd right in line.
I've never had a big interest in 1/4 mile, I think the nearest track is 5 hours away. I live in the mountains, rural, I've been in some your densely populated area's....sorry. My cars are set for turning, braking, acceleration....a fun 15 minute rip thru the mountains, up, down & around!
I really dislike those dyno run's. My tuning ability in the under curve area was very weak, just about one year ago.
Tony is one of those when he speaks you should pay attention individuals with respect to air flow. He shares willing & is available to anyone who wants to talk! Argue with him a little, he likes that!
The thread Tony link to covers a lot of ground, I won't regurgitate what was discussed there. There are key points I will mention though.
First a very well built 346 will produce in the area of 430 ft lbs, what you do with that & after that determines your peak HP.
Second, sanity checks! Many of you in this thread it is trap mph, myself it is somewhat different, airflow or what are similar vehicles are doing on that dyno. In the case of my dyno runs I checked many cars on that dyno day.....If I remember correctly a C6 Z06 stock dyno'd right in line.
I've never had a big interest in 1/4 mile, I think the nearest track is 5 hours away. I live in the mountains, rural, I've been in some your densely populated area's....sorry. My cars are set for turning, braking, acceleration....a fun 15 minute rip thru the mountains, up, down & around!
Last edited by ctd; 10-16-2010 at 05:38 PM.
10-16-2010, 05:51 PM
#100
Tony,
I wanted to ask something that i heard about a while back. In a 346cid LS1 with 300cfm heads and at a peak of 6,500 rpm can the engine actually use all that flow? I know there's loses through the intake as well. Or does it take more rpm to utilize all that cfm? I was looking into matching head flow with the cubes of the motor. Of course there were formula's so i plugged in 300cfm and converted the flow from 28" of H2O to 10" like they want. Then there's a chart based on CFM and the .598 multiplier. Well going by the formula the optimal head flow was in the 255cfm range for a 346 motor peaking at 6,500 rpm. So i'm wondering if an LS1 can use anymore flow than 255 to 260 cfm at 6,500? Then they say to match the cams peak with the motors peak. It's cool to understand how all that stuff works, well it me it's interesting
I wanted to ask something that i heard about a while back. In a 346cid LS1 with 300cfm heads and at a peak of 6,500 rpm can the engine actually use all that flow? I know there's loses through the intake as well. Or does it take more rpm to utilize all that cfm? I was looking into matching head flow with the cubes of the motor. Of course there were formula's so i plugged in 300cfm and converted the flow from 28" of H2O to 10" like they want. Then there's a chart based on CFM and the .598 multiplier. Well going by the formula the optimal head flow was in the 255cfm range for a 346 motor peaking at 6,500 rpm. So i'm wondering if an LS1 can use anymore flow than 255 to 260 cfm at 6,500? Then they say to match the cams peak with the motors peak. It's cool to understand how all that stuff works, well it me it's interesting