NA Meth Injection Dyno Results
Awesome read. Thanks for the testing.
I honestly read the majority of it, I thought I read that you said you were injecting Post-MAF? Or more importantly Post-IAT. Aren't you then getting an inaccurate account of the actual air intake temperature? It seems to me you are merely tricking the tune. Would it not be more beneficial (safe) to get an accurate reading of the IAT with the meth, therefore if you were mid-race and had a pump failure or ran out of meth you wouldn't hurt anything. I supposed on a stockish motor it wouldn't matter much... but I thought the goal behind doing the meth was more power, safely.
Also, id love to see a couple runs 50/50 vs 100% meth, just so the 100% meth guys will shut up.
I saw a lot of comments about 'you would see better results...' if you were limited by your fuel pump or limited by your injectors. But adding meth to 'fix' these issues seems like an expensive bandage for a fairly inexpensive problem... thus once again making a more dangerous situation instead of adding safety.
Loved the write up!!
I honestly read the majority of it, I thought I read that you said you were injecting Post-MAF? Or more importantly Post-IAT. Aren't you then getting an inaccurate account of the actual air intake temperature? It seems to me you are merely tricking the tune. Would it not be more beneficial (safe) to get an accurate reading of the IAT with the meth, therefore if you were mid-race and had a pump failure or ran out of meth you wouldn't hurt anything. I supposed on a stockish motor it wouldn't matter much... but I thought the goal behind doing the meth was more power, safely.
Also, id love to see a couple runs 50/50 vs 100% meth, just so the 100% meth guys will shut up.
I saw a lot of comments about 'you would see better results...' if you were limited by your fuel pump or limited by your injectors. But adding meth to 'fix' these issues seems like an expensive bandage for a fairly inexpensive problem... thus once again making a more dangerous situation instead of adding safety.
Loved the write up!!
I am in discussions with a tech at Snow. Will have some updates and nitro info to post shortly. Will try to do on the plane this weekend.
Nitro testing is still a few weeks out...debating running straight VP M5, my own mix, or the nitroboost with water/meth. Need to see if I can rig up an expansion tank or something to catch the vapor.
Nitro testing is still a few weeks out...debating running straight VP M5, my own mix, or the nitroboost with water/meth. Need to see if I can rig up an expansion tank or something to catch the vapor.
Here is an update of my conversation with Snow regarding nitro use and my results:
Q: I have two additional questions, what would be the long term effects if I tuned for nitro booster I drive the car 1k miles a year.
If you tune specifically for the nitro booster you shouldn’t have any issues. Make sure you are keeping you’re A/F in line obviously and keep in mind that running a 50/50 mix of meth and water after you have tuned for the nitro will make the A/F rich. It is the lean condition in the combustion chamber that would cause piston damage. The seals in our pump and fittings will not have an issue. The pump seals and fitting o-rings are all EPDM so it will be fine.
And regarding my results posted at the beginning:
Your first stage of injection is correct. I would typically advise to run the second stage from 60% to 80% for this application but this will make the injection curve steeper. You may need to go with a smaller nozzle combo. I would try a 100ml/min nozzle on the second stage to cut down flow. It looks like you may be slightly over injecting.
Q: I have two additional questions, what would be the long term effects if I tuned for nitro booster I drive the car 1k miles a year.
If you tune specifically for the nitro booster you shouldn’t have any issues. Make sure you are keeping you’re A/F in line obviously and keep in mind that running a 50/50 mix of meth and water after you have tuned for the nitro will make the A/F rich. It is the lean condition in the combustion chamber that would cause piston damage. The seals in our pump and fittings will not have an issue. The pump seals and fitting o-rings are all EPDM so it will be fine.
And regarding my results posted at the beginning:
Your first stage of injection is correct. I would typically advise to run the second stage from 60% to 80% for this application but this will make the injection curve steeper. You may need to go with a smaller nozzle combo. I would try a 100ml/min nozzle on the second stage to cut down flow. It looks like you may be slightly over injecting.
So while I was waiting on the nitro to come in I had to have some emergency titanium parts installed. This has been an major ordeal that I don't want to get into. I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT.
Over the winter I tried to crank the motor a few times to eccercise the valve springs and change the oil. The oil showed increased aluminum and bronze and the motor acted like it had seized. The broken spring removed the valve seal completely and started gnawing on the guide. The aluminum was from the sloppy pushrod beating on the head itself. As it turns out cylinders 7 and 8 were hydrolocked one with fuel and the other with water meth. It was all due to the broken #6 intake valve that caused the O2s to up the duty cycle to where it was pouring meth into the cylinders.
the only damage was the $20 spring and the starter flange broke. I changed all that and put in some auto lite plugs. ..and she runs like a raped ape. Idles, starts, cold operation are all better than ever. I took a serious financial hit this year from all the time off for surgery, but I hope to finish up the meth/nitro testing next spring. I already have the jet and a set of TR6ix plugs ready but I am replacing all the springs out of an abundance of caution.
I guess we know why I was down 15whp on the dyno though. Amazingly the cylinder still has only a 3% leakdown. I have to be the luckiest guy ever.
Last edited by therabidweasel; Jul 4, 2014 at 09:59 AM.
An update a little over a year on:
Firstly, here are a list of grievances I have with this system:
1) Despite being assembled and suggested by Matt Snow personally for a NA Gen IV Camaro, my kit came with the wrong jets (a 60 and a 175ml/min). I needed to spend yet more dosh to buy the correct jets (currently (2) 100ml/min, without checking the tune) because the man would not return phone calls to the dealer that he put the kit together for and his techs weren't about to send out free jets.
2) This kit is FOR a Gen 4 Camaro, the only viable location to shoot meth is the intake hose. You cannot shoot it before the MAF. The kit did not come with the mounts that allow the nozzles to be installed there, and thus cost $60+shipping and waiting in addition to the kit price.
3) Despite my statements earlier RE injector DC, this thing hydro-locked my motor because the pump was running as soon as I turned the key, not with the motor (and injectors) pulsing. Luckily, it just broke my starter. It has not repeated this behavior, but I am in the process of adding additional safety provisions. . .a master arm switch, remote power relay, and remote LEDs to indicate power, single jet, and dual jet operation.
4) Despite the only metal in the system being Snow's nozzles and nozzle mounts, the latter are rusting and clogging the jets with rust. Clean at every oil change.
5) As stated earlier, every wire in the system must be lengthened, despite it being the "correct" system for a Gen IV Camaro.
6) The controller is inconveniently shaped, the wires come out the freaking side which is a PITA, and the only mounting provision is double-sided tape.
7) The pump draws 11A. For the price of this system they should include a remote power relay so that you don't wire it directly to "IGN" in your fuse box and blow your gauge cluster fuse, which immediately shuts the car down and throws the P0650 code which doesn't allow it to even crank! Happened to me for the first time yesterday. $85 tow bill, it was a sneaky fuse that couldn't be seen by eye.
The pros of the system:
1) When the jets aren't clogged with rust you get good suppression of preignition using meth. Meth is much cheaper than running race fuel and only comes on when you actually need the suppression at higher throttle inputs. But race fuel doesn't require a $700 system and a good deal of time to install it. It also wont hydro-lock your motor.
2) You can inject Snow's special water-compatible nitromethane, which I still plan on doing. If you don't mind "pure" meth you should also be able to run VP M5, which has some nitro in it.
3) Snow systems do not have the many little boxes and heatsinking that the Alkycontrol units require. As an electrical engineer I believe AC requires heatsinking most likely because they are running their pumps via linear control and Snow are probably running via PWM. The Snow controller doesn't even get warm. I see no reason to run a DC pump via linear as it is wasteful of power, requires extra heatsinking to remove that wasted power, reduces the max available voltage to the pump compared to a PWM scheme, and provides no benefits that I can think of to the end user. I have no further comments on Alkycontrol, people seem to really like them. I'm just stating why I think they need so much heatsinking while Snows do not.
I still plan to switch to nitro/water/meth and re-tune in the spring.
Finally, I have been thinking seriously about relocating the IAT to the manifold so it sees the cooling effect of the meth. But I am really reluctant to drill a $2500 intake. My tune does not pull the timing due to high IATs. Further, I think it is a bad idea to separate the MAF and IAT. The MAF is measuring how much air is entering the intake, period. All air goes through it. If it doesn't have a good read on the temperature of that air, it is going to calculate the wrong mass. Even if the meth cools and densifies the charge after the MAF, that densification is still done to the mass of air that was pulled through the MAF, and that air was at the temperature and flow rate it was at, not at the cooled temperature. Thus, I don't see why moving the IAT would help; I think it would hurt. Please tell me where you think the above thinking is wrong if you disagree.
The above is not to say that the cooling/densification does not help. It is to say that the effect is captured, and in fact captured best, with the MAF and IAT collocated, assuming the tune doesn't adjust timing on the basis of IAT alone.
Firstly, here are a list of grievances I have with this system:
1) Despite being assembled and suggested by Matt Snow personally for a NA Gen IV Camaro, my kit came with the wrong jets (a 60 and a 175ml/min). I needed to spend yet more dosh to buy the correct jets (currently (2) 100ml/min, without checking the tune) because the man would not return phone calls to the dealer that he put the kit together for and his techs weren't about to send out free jets.
2) This kit is FOR a Gen 4 Camaro, the only viable location to shoot meth is the intake hose. You cannot shoot it before the MAF. The kit did not come with the mounts that allow the nozzles to be installed there, and thus cost $60+shipping and waiting in addition to the kit price.
3) Despite my statements earlier RE injector DC, this thing hydro-locked my motor because the pump was running as soon as I turned the key, not with the motor (and injectors) pulsing. Luckily, it just broke my starter. It has not repeated this behavior, but I am in the process of adding additional safety provisions. . .a master arm switch, remote power relay, and remote LEDs to indicate power, single jet, and dual jet operation.
4) Despite the only metal in the system being Snow's nozzles and nozzle mounts, the latter are rusting and clogging the jets with rust. Clean at every oil change.
5) As stated earlier, every wire in the system must be lengthened, despite it being the "correct" system for a Gen IV Camaro.
6) The controller is inconveniently shaped, the wires come out the freaking side which is a PITA, and the only mounting provision is double-sided tape.
7) The pump draws 11A. For the price of this system they should include a remote power relay so that you don't wire it directly to "IGN" in your fuse box and blow your gauge cluster fuse, which immediately shuts the car down and throws the P0650 code which doesn't allow it to even crank! Happened to me for the first time yesterday. $85 tow bill, it was a sneaky fuse that couldn't be seen by eye.
The pros of the system:
1) When the jets aren't clogged with rust you get good suppression of preignition using meth. Meth is much cheaper than running race fuel and only comes on when you actually need the suppression at higher throttle inputs. But race fuel doesn't require a $700 system and a good deal of time to install it. It also wont hydro-lock your motor.
2) You can inject Snow's special water-compatible nitromethane, which I still plan on doing. If you don't mind "pure" meth you should also be able to run VP M5, which has some nitro in it.
3) Snow systems do not have the many little boxes and heatsinking that the Alkycontrol units require. As an electrical engineer I believe AC requires heatsinking most likely because they are running their pumps via linear control and Snow are probably running via PWM. The Snow controller doesn't even get warm. I see no reason to run a DC pump via linear as it is wasteful of power, requires extra heatsinking to remove that wasted power, reduces the max available voltage to the pump compared to a PWM scheme, and provides no benefits that I can think of to the end user. I have no further comments on Alkycontrol, people seem to really like them. I'm just stating why I think they need so much heatsinking while Snows do not.
I still plan to switch to nitro/water/meth and re-tune in the spring.
Finally, I have been thinking seriously about relocating the IAT to the manifold so it sees the cooling effect of the meth. But I am really reluctant to drill a $2500 intake. My tune does not pull the timing due to high IATs. Further, I think it is a bad idea to separate the MAF and IAT. The MAF is measuring how much air is entering the intake, period. All air goes through it. If it doesn't have a good read on the temperature of that air, it is going to calculate the wrong mass. Even if the meth cools and densifies the charge after the MAF, that densification is still done to the mass of air that was pulled through the MAF, and that air was at the temperature and flow rate it was at, not at the cooled temperature. Thus, I don't see why moving the IAT would help; I think it would hurt. Please tell me where you think the above thinking is wrong if you disagree.
The above is not to say that the cooling/densification does not help. It is to say that the effect is captured, and in fact captured best, with the MAF and IAT collocated, assuming the tune doesn't adjust timing on the basis of IAT alone.
TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,610
Likes: 4
From: Maricopa, AZ
Finally, I have been thinking seriously about relocating the IAT to the manifold so it sees the cooling effect of the meth. But I am really reluctant to drill a $2500 intake. My tune does not pull the timing due to high IATs. Further, I think it is a bad idea to separate the MAF and IAT. The MAF is measuring how much air is entering the intake, period. All air goes through it. If it doesn't have a good read on the temperature of that air, it is going to calculate the wrong mass. Even if the meth cools and densifies the charge after the MAF, that densification is still done to the mass of air that was pulled through the MAF, and that air was at the temperature and flow rate it was at, not at the cooled temperature. Thus, I don't see why moving the IAT would help; I think it would hurt. Please tell me where you think the above thinking is wrong if you disagree.
The above is not to say that the cooling/densification does not help. It is to say that the effect is captured, and in fact captured best, with the MAF and IAT collocated, assuming the tune doesn't adjust timing on the basis of IAT alone.
The above is not to say that the cooling/densification does not help. It is to say that the effect is captured, and in fact captured best, with the MAF and IAT collocated, assuming the tune doesn't adjust timing on the basis of IAT alone.
Basically, if you make the air cooler (denser) the engine is going to use more air, no mater what the actual IAT is reading the MAF will see it. Even if the IAT stays the same, more air flow will happen across the MAF as a result of cooler air post IAT. The engine is fueled solely on how much air MASS is ingested, NOT how hot the air is. The IAT is used (along with the MAF and MAP) to determine how much volume each gram of air takes up.
Glad I found this thread. I have a kit I've been debating on putting on my 427. Though now im thinking of using e85, it's not very easy to get local. I had to travel 20+ miles to get e85.
I .may test both. I also just bought an ewp and gz vacuum pump to put on.
When I go back to eps to dyno, i'm leaving no stone unturned
I .may test both. I also just bought an ewp and gz vacuum pump to put on.
When I go back to eps to dyno, i'm leaving no stone unturned
Glad I found this thread. I have a kit I've been debating on putting on my 427. Though now im thinking of using e85, it's not very easy to get local. I had to travel 20+ miles to get e85.
I .may test both. I also just bought an ewp and gz vacuum pump to put on.
When I go back to eps to dyno, i'm leaving no stone unturned
I .may test both. I also just bought an ewp and gz vacuum pump to put on.
When I go back to eps to dyno, i'm leaving no stone unturned
Cool. I like your style. I drive this car most weekends and its been way more fun than I had expected. You might consider tuning in with some of the Snow nitro-meth. Its expensive as hell but it definitely adds. If you dont want the nitro for a particular drive, because itvis expensive, the tune will just end up slightly rich.
Yearly I pull my jets and clean them ultrasonically. But its been ok to own. I mean I did hydrolock one cylinder in a way I cant understand (that only cost me valve springs). I still plan to wire in a master arm switch on the meth as I dont trust it to not hydrolock the motor.
I would not install this system on this car again, it took way too much effort for the gain. The motor definitely runs more smoothly on the 50/50. You can feel it, but man it was a lot to do. Cheers on yours.
Cool. I like your style. I drive this car most weekends and its been way more fun than I had expected. You might consider tuning in with some of the Snow nitro-meth. Its expensive as hell but it definitely adds. If you dont want the nitro for a particular drive, because itvis expensive, the tune will just end up slightly rich.
Yearly I pull my jets and clean them ultrasonically. But its been ok to own. I mean I did hydrolock one cylinder in a way I cant understand (that only cost me valve springs). I still plan to wire in a master arm switch on the meth as I dont trust it to not hydrolock the motor.
I would not install this system on this car again, it took way too much effort for the gain. The motor definitely runs more smoothly on the 50/50. You can feel it, but man it was a lot to do. Cheers on yours.
Yearly I pull my jets and clean them ultrasonically. But its been ok to own. I mean I did hydrolock one cylinder in a way I cant understand (that only cost me valve springs). I still plan to wire in a master arm switch on the meth as I dont trust it to not hydrolock the motor.
I would not install this system on this car again, it took way too much effort for the gain. The motor definitely runs more smoothly on the 50/50. You can feel it, but man it was a lot to do. Cheers on yours.
I will spray through the iat sensor and may even cut the boost juice in half so its 25% instead of 50%.
The boost guys spray at the IAT to soak it, this way if the pump runs try or there is an electrical issue the IAT vs. timing retard table can pull timing to keep the motor alive. Not as critical for an NA setup, but just sharing an idea thats used.
See how that works
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 433
Likes: 40
From: Vancouver area, West coast Canada
Lots of folks run pure meth. Plain and simple **** THAT. I have worked with methanol extensively. It attacks your optic nerve and you develop a sensitivity to it after many exposures. I have seen this first hand and I am not filling my garage with meth vapor. Anyone that does is an idiot...period, sorry if I hurt your feelings. (Edit: i am using the washer tank, which is vented) Meth is also hygroscopic and will leach water from the air and continually dilute itself. The fact that it is highly flamable and burns invisibly is the third or fourth reason not to use it. Wanna trash your eyes and get headaches for the rest of your life? Then go enjoy the minty smell of methanol. I wear goggles (not glasses) and gloves and work in a vetilated area while holding my breath. I do so quickly. Sorry guys a touchy subject for me, but meth aint just any alcohol.
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I suspect the casual exposure of filling a meth tank offers very little real hazard. Thanks for the dyno info !
