NA Meth Injection Dyno Results
07-13-2013, 01:56 PM
#1
NA Meth Injection Dyno Results Gents, I had been hoping to talk to Snow before posting this thread. Indeed I had hoped to speak with Matt Snow himself, but I've decided to go ahead and post and direct them to this thread if they decide they want to comment further. I apologize for the delay, I know some have been waiting (Whigham, Rise of the Phoenix 
) I have good excuses that I wont elaborate here. Background info can be found in my build thread and in my dyno results thread:
Build Thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-idle-vid.html
Dyno Thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...ed-1le-ss.html
If you have a look at the end dyno thread you will see that I am starting with a 15-20whp reduceded baseline that is due to some combination of TC/Trans/Plug/Fuel/Ambient changes from the 450whp runs back in Nov. The tune has also gone lean for some reason. If any of you have been following along you'll also note that I had a lifter take a **** in my motor early on and wipe out the cam. I am still seeing significant metal contamination (after ~2k miles of driving/dyno runs) trapped in the filter with a few chunks on the plug. . .I am hoping that this is not the true source of the power reduction. If it is I'm screwed, but here is the thread where I am tracking that:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-can-live.html
Every run in all of my threads were made at New England Dyno in Douglas, Mass (whom I highly recommend).
NOW FOR THE METH
As soon as I filled the car up with new summer fuel (93 octane) I started seeing significant KR on hot days at WOT. I didnt think this was surprising given that my timing down low was at 28* and up top it is 30*. When we did the original tune, the difference between 26* and 30* at WOT was 25whp/tq across the board. So I decided I wanted to add meth to keep this timing and perhaps advance it further without knock. Indeed that occurred and I am now running 32* across the board with no audible, measurable, or tactile ping. I'll get into what I mean by tactile ping in a minute.
THE SETUP:
I am running a Snow Performance Level 3 kit. All you would need to order to duplicate it is (1) PN 20150 and (2x) 40110 Nozzle Adaptors. I had been using a 4” sewer pipe coupling for my intake hose, but after asking on here I was recommended a 22* silicone hose from IntakeHoses.com (PN 22B-400X4). The kit contains two jets, with the second one opened via a solenoid above some injector pulsewidth. I use the 100ml/min nozzle as the small jet and 175ml/min as the big jet. I am also using 36lb injectors, which at WOT put me at 75-80%DC at WOT. With the controller you have to set 4 thresholds, min/max pulsewidths corresponding to the min/max injection of both jets. On the small jet side my thresholds are 20%/50% and on the big jet we finally ended up with 50%/100%. . .note that I never get to full meth injection once the big jet opens as the car will never give a 100% injector DC. . .the tune was too rich up high, so we reduced meth in this way.
Oh yeah, I am running a 50/50% by volume mixture of RO+DI water mixed with VP M1 Racing Methanol. Most folks would use distilled, but I have a well maintanined DI system that I use for my drinking water.
RESULTS
So first a word on results. As far as I can tell the reason why people use smoothing is that it smoothes over the little peaks that are sometimes seen in a run that give you falsely higher peak values. When I show unsmoothed curves below I do not care about the peak values, I am trying to illustrate the roughness of the motor as measured by the dyno. In my car, with poly mounts, the difference between meth and no meth on the same tune was easily felt, what I am calling tactile ping. The curves below are the tune I rolled into the dyno with (Nov 450whp tune) with meth turned off (blue) and then with meth turned on (red). In the end this injection rate was just a bit too high on top, but you can see there was essentially no bump in peak power. But please look carefully at the red versus blue. The red meth line is clearly much smoother and you can feel this in the car as you make the run when compared to the no meth run. This is something I referred to in the dyno thread as “micro” ping, but in typing this I also used the term “tactile” ping because you feel it more than anything else. One interesting thing is that in the area where I have placed the cursor there is a signicant pickup in hp/tq. This may be the origin of the increased hit that I feel right at TC lockup. I also believe part of that hit is the additional charge cooling, which really isnt simulated on the dyno with the hood up and the blower fans running.
Now if we turn the smoothing on and zoom in on the curves a bit more, you can still see the bump down low, but I'm actually losing a few HP up top with the meth.
So as I said above, with the meth on I was able to advance the timing 4* down low and an additional 2* up high, so I am running 32 degrees across the board. I did not see the large gain in HP that I had hoped for from this advance, which leads me to believe that with my DCR on 93 I was basically not missing any timing at 30 degrees. For guys running more DCR or for those like RonSSNova who seem only to be able to get 22* or so I would think that there is a lot of potential in meth injection by allowing you to advance timing. Whigham at 29*. . .maybe not so much.
One thing I want to explicitly point out here is that this is a Mamo build. That means attention was paid to every detail. My quench is a little on the tight side, my headgaskets are custom thickness and bore. . .the chambers have all been tweaked to reduce ping as much as possible so we can run the most timing. Which I believe is the reason I can get away (or nearly so) with 30* and no meth. I think Whigham has clearly paid similar attention in his build and is running similar timing. . .this is just my opinion of the correlation obviously, I'm no expert.
Anyhoo, we set about the very arduous task of tuning to account for the meth by reducing injector pulsewidth using the PE tables. Even when reducing PW by 20% we were unable to get the tune to lean out at all. It is weird, this is one of the questions I wanted to ask Snow. I assume it has to do with the controller working off injector pulsewidth, but it would seem to me that reducing the pulsewidth should then reduce both fuel and meth, which should then lean the AFR. . .we made many pulls, continually decreasing the PW and we saw NO effect. In the end we were able to lean the AFR by adjusting the VE table. By doing so, we were able to get another ~7whp across the board out of the car after we had advanced the timing and leaned the AFR. Here is the comparison of the tunes running meth. I entered with the blue line and left with the red line.
And finally, lets look at the curve with no smoothing to see what the micro/tactile ping looks like on the dyno, remember I have 2-4* more timing in that red curve:
So I am a little dissapointed that I did not pick up more hp given the cost of the system + nozzle mounts + dyno time. . .but really at this level what can I do to add HP NA? Basically an EWP is the only thing I havent done that would show on the dyno. The other thing that I have spoken about with Tony is that we made these runs essentiall back to back on a very hot and humid day. We paid no attention to coolant temp etc. It is therefore possible that all of the runs we made where we saw no change by modding the PE tables, could have actually shown small changes that were masked by not starting each pull at the same coolant temp. This may actually lead me to getting an EWP, not because I want any additional whp, but because I want to be able to circulate coolant with the motor off. If I could do that, I could start each pull at a more controlled point and perhaps coax out a few more hp.
ADDICTION TO METH
I still feel that on a hot day I get a noticeable hit from the meth charge cooling. That feeling also corresponds with the motor running more smoothly and it just makes it enough different to where I can feel something is happening. Am I getting measureable more WHP from the charge cooling. . .maybe. The other thing is I am now running 32*, right? What happens if my pump fails or I run out of juice? Well, the meth only kicks on at ~3250rpm, so I just keep my foot out of it until I get the system fixed or retune to retard the timing again.
I encourange anyone else that is NA and has data on injecting any concentration of meth to add their results to this thread. I hope you guys find this info useful and interesting. I'm sorry it took me over a week to get it up.
Steve
) I have good excuses that I wont elaborate here. Background info can be found in my build thread and in my dyno results thread:Build Thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-idle-vid.html
Dyno Thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...ed-1le-ss.html
If you have a look at the end dyno thread you will see that I am starting with a 15-20whp reduceded baseline that is due to some combination of TC/Trans/Plug/Fuel/Ambient changes from the 450whp runs back in Nov. The tune has also gone lean for some reason. If any of you have been following along you'll also note that I had a lifter take a **** in my motor early on and wipe out the cam. I am still seeing significant metal contamination (after ~2k miles of driving/dyno runs) trapped in the filter with a few chunks on the plug. . .I am hoping that this is not the true source of the power reduction. If it is I'm screwed, but here is the thread where I am tracking that:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-can-live.html
Every run in all of my threads were made at New England Dyno in Douglas, Mass (whom I highly recommend).
NOW FOR THE METH
As soon as I filled the car up with new summer fuel (93 octane) I started seeing significant KR on hot days at WOT. I didnt think this was surprising given that my timing down low was at 28* and up top it is 30*. When we did the original tune, the difference between 26* and 30* at WOT was 25whp/tq across the board. So I decided I wanted to add meth to keep this timing and perhaps advance it further without knock. Indeed that occurred and I am now running 32* across the board with no audible, measurable, or tactile ping. I'll get into what I mean by tactile ping in a minute.
THE SETUP:
I am running a Snow Performance Level 3 kit. All you would need to order to duplicate it is (1) PN 20150 and (2x) 40110 Nozzle Adaptors. I had been using a 4” sewer pipe coupling for my intake hose, but after asking on here I was recommended a 22* silicone hose from IntakeHoses.com (PN 22B-400X4). The kit contains two jets, with the second one opened via a solenoid above some injector pulsewidth. I use the 100ml/min nozzle as the small jet and 175ml/min as the big jet. I am also using 36lb injectors, which at WOT put me at 75-80%DC at WOT. With the controller you have to set 4 thresholds, min/max pulsewidths corresponding to the min/max injection of both jets. On the small jet side my thresholds are 20%/50% and on the big jet we finally ended up with 50%/100%. . .note that I never get to full meth injection once the big jet opens as the car will never give a 100% injector DC. . .the tune was too rich up high, so we reduced meth in this way.
Oh yeah, I am running a 50/50% by volume mixture of RO+DI water mixed with VP M1 Racing Methanol. Most folks would use distilled, but I have a well maintanined DI system that I use for my drinking water.
RESULTS
So first a word on results. As far as I can tell the reason why people use smoothing is that it smoothes over the little peaks that are sometimes seen in a run that give you falsely higher peak values. When I show unsmoothed curves below I do not care about the peak values, I am trying to illustrate the roughness of the motor as measured by the dyno. In my car, with poly mounts, the difference between meth and no meth on the same tune was easily felt, what I am calling tactile ping. The curves below are the tune I rolled into the dyno with (Nov 450whp tune) with meth turned off (blue) and then with meth turned on (red). In the end this injection rate was just a bit too high on top, but you can see there was essentially no bump in peak power. But please look carefully at the red versus blue. The red meth line is clearly much smoother and you can feel this in the car as you make the run when compared to the no meth run. This is something I referred to in the dyno thread as “micro” ping, but in typing this I also used the term “tactile” ping because you feel it more than anything else. One interesting thing is that in the area where I have placed the cursor there is a signicant pickup in hp/tq. This may be the origin of the increased hit that I feel right at TC lockup. I also believe part of that hit is the additional charge cooling, which really isnt simulated on the dyno with the hood up and the blower fans running.
Now if we turn the smoothing on and zoom in on the curves a bit more, you can still see the bump down low, but I'm actually losing a few HP up top with the meth.
So as I said above, with the meth on I was able to advance the timing 4* down low and an additional 2* up high, so I am running 32 degrees across the board. I did not see the large gain in HP that I had hoped for from this advance, which leads me to believe that with my DCR on 93 I was basically not missing any timing at 30 degrees. For guys running more DCR or for those like RonSSNova who seem only to be able to get 22* or so I would think that there is a lot of potential in meth injection by allowing you to advance timing. Whigham at 29*. . .maybe not so much.
One thing I want to explicitly point out here is that this is a Mamo build. That means attention was paid to every detail. My quench is a little on the tight side, my headgaskets are custom thickness and bore. . .the chambers have all been tweaked to reduce ping as much as possible so we can run the most timing. Which I believe is the reason I can get away (or nearly so) with 30* and no meth. I think Whigham has clearly paid similar attention in his build and is running similar timing. . .this is just my opinion of the correlation obviously, I'm no expert.
Anyhoo, we set about the very arduous task of tuning to account for the meth by reducing injector pulsewidth using the PE tables. Even when reducing PW by 20% we were unable to get the tune to lean out at all. It is weird, this is one of the questions I wanted to ask Snow. I assume it has to do with the controller working off injector pulsewidth, but it would seem to me that reducing the pulsewidth should then reduce both fuel and meth, which should then lean the AFR. . .we made many pulls, continually decreasing the PW and we saw NO effect. In the end we were able to lean the AFR by adjusting the VE table. By doing so, we were able to get another ~7whp across the board out of the car after we had advanced the timing and leaned the AFR. Here is the comparison of the tunes running meth. I entered with the blue line and left with the red line.
And finally, lets look at the curve with no smoothing to see what the micro/tactile ping looks like on the dyno, remember I have 2-4* more timing in that red curve:
So I am a little dissapointed that I did not pick up more hp given the cost of the system + nozzle mounts + dyno time. . .but really at this level what can I do to add HP NA? Basically an EWP is the only thing I havent done that would show on the dyno. The other thing that I have spoken about with Tony is that we made these runs essentiall back to back on a very hot and humid day. We paid no attention to coolant temp etc. It is therefore possible that all of the runs we made where we saw no change by modding the PE tables, could have actually shown small changes that were masked by not starting each pull at the same coolant temp. This may actually lead me to getting an EWP, not because I want any additional whp, but because I want to be able to circulate coolant with the motor off. If I could do that, I could start each pull at a more controlled point and perhaps coax out a few more hp.
ADDICTION TO METH
I still feel that on a hot day I get a noticeable hit from the meth charge cooling. That feeling also corresponds with the motor running more smoothly and it just makes it enough different to where I can feel something is happening. Am I getting measureable more WHP from the charge cooling. . .maybe. The other thing is I am now running 32*, right? What happens if my pump fails or I run out of juice? Well, the meth only kicks on at ~3250rpm, so I just keep my foot out of it until I get the system fixed or retune to retard the timing again.
I encourange anyone else that is NA and has data on injecting any concentration of meth to add their results to this thread. I hope you guys find this info useful and interesting. I'm sorry it took me over a week to get it up.
Steve
07-13-2013, 02:17 PM
#2
9 Second Club
I think part of the problem here is you used water.
Use 100% meth and you would have more potential for gains. Most n/a engines are not going to be badly knock limited so not so far away from MBT that you need knock suppression from the water. So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
If you want to continue to use water in the mix, then you need to inject less fluid overall.
But TBH, I'd just try it with pure methanol. That way there will be no negative side to the extra fluid.
Using water on a boosted build is very different, as it requires far far more chamber and charge cooling so some water in there is an advantage, plus you can adjust boost etc to optimise performance after.
Although even with a boosted build you can reach a point where there is too much water in the mix.
Of course easier than above, just mix about 10-15% methanol into your normal gas in the tank and it should offer some potential gains after re-tuning.
But ultimately unless your engine is knock limited in the first place, you're never going to see real gains.
Use 100% meth and you would have more potential for gains. Most n/a engines are not going to be badly knock limited so not so far away from MBT that you need knock suppression from the water. So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
If you want to continue to use water in the mix, then you need to inject less fluid overall.
But TBH, I'd just try it with pure methanol. That way there will be no negative side to the extra fluid.
Using water on a boosted build is very different, as it requires far far more chamber and charge cooling so some water in there is an advantage, plus you can adjust boost etc to optimise performance after.
Although even with a boosted build you can reach a point where there is too much water in the mix.
Of course easier than above, just mix about 10-15% methanol into your normal gas in the tank and it should offer some potential gains after re-tuning.
But ultimately unless your engine is knock limited in the first place, you're never going to see real gains.
07-13-2013, 02:25 PM
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Weasel, nice write up. I was wondering when we would see someone post up results of a NA meth injected build. It'd be neat to see what the dyno shows with the same identical timing with and w/o meth laid over each other. Reason I say this, is that that would be the way you knew you were basically running the system for just added protection against detonation, and also seeing what ONLY the effects were from cooling the charge air.
You, Jake, and Whigham have all got me fired up into looking into an ECS kit for my Vette!
You, Jake, and Whigham have all got me fired up into looking into an ECS kit for my Vette!
07-13-2013, 02:29 PM
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I think part of the problem here is you used water.
Use 100% meth and you would have more potential for gains. Most n/a engines are not going to be badly knock limited so not so far away from MBT that you need knock suppression from the water. So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
If you want to continue to use water in the mix, then you need to inject less fluid overall.
But TBH, I'd just try it with pure methanol. That way there will be no negative side to the extra fluid.
Using water on a boosted build is very different, as it requires far far more chamber and charge cooling so some water in there is an advantage, plus you can adjust boost etc to optimise performance after.
Although even with a boosted build you can reach a point where there is too much water in the mix.
Of course easier than above, just mix about 10-15% methanol into your normal gas in the tank and it should offer some potential gains after re-tuning.
But ultimately unless your engine is knock limited in the first place, you're never going to see real gains.
Use 100% meth and you would have more potential for gains. Most n/a engines are not going to be badly knock limited so not so far away from MBT that you need knock suppression from the water. So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
If you want to continue to use water in the mix, then you need to inject less fluid overall.
But TBH, I'd just try it with pure methanol. That way there will be no negative side to the extra fluid.
Using water on a boosted build is very different, as it requires far far more chamber and charge cooling so some water in there is an advantage, plus you can adjust boost etc to optimise performance after.
Although even with a boosted build you can reach a point where there is too much water in the mix.
Of course easier than above, just mix about 10-15% methanol into your normal gas in the tank and it should offer some potential gains after re-tuning.
But ultimately unless your engine is knock limited in the first place, you're never going to see real gains.
07-13-2013, 02:40 PM
#5
9 Second Club
Which bit is scary ?
methanol injection or adding a small quantity to your fuel ?
It's commonplace here in the UK, simply because it is a very cheap upgrade over pump fuel. Havent heard of anyone doing it on n/a though, only boosted motors, they usually use around 15-20% on decent power boosted builds.
Obviously yes pure methanol burns almost invisibly, but anyone using a methanol injection kit will be well aware of that and all of the risks using methanol carries. That wont matter whether you're adding it to fuel or injecting it after. Methanol is dangerous stuff.
methanol injection or adding a small quantity to your fuel ?
It's commonplace here in the UK, simply because it is a very cheap upgrade over pump fuel. Havent heard of anyone doing it on n/a though, only boosted motors, they usually use around 15-20% on decent power boosted builds.
Obviously yes pure methanol burns almost invisibly, but anyone using a methanol injection kit will be well aware of that and all of the risks using methanol carries. That wont matter whether you're adding it to fuel or injecting it after. Methanol is dangerous stuff.
07-13-2013, 02:43 PM
#6
Nice job on the write up.
Your results were exactly as I thought they would be. There just isn't much to be gained on an NA car with meth injection. FWIW, I don't think there would be much of any difference with going straight meth. We messed with water and meth percentages on my boosted car on the dyno and my car held cooler IATs with the 50:50 water meth mix than straight meth.
Your results were exactly as I thought they would be. There just isn't much to be gained on an NA car with meth injection. FWIW, I don't think there would be much of any difference with going straight meth. We messed with water and meth percentages on my boosted car on the dyno and my car held cooler IATs with the 50:50 water meth mix than straight meth.
07-13-2013, 02:49 PM
#7
9 Second Club
There would be more potential if the actual engine demanded it.
Example, it was a much higher CR to start with, so your fuel was a limitation.
Or if you maybe tried it with a lower grade fuel, then methanol might help restore it to a power level more akin to better fuel.
But in this case, doubtful the fuel was a limitation in the first place hence such small change.
Water will cool better, but the way meth users get around that is simply by injecting more and more methanol.
Example, it was a much higher CR to start with, so your fuel was a limitation.
Or if you maybe tried it with a lower grade fuel, then methanol might help restore it to a power level more akin to better fuel.
But in this case, doubtful the fuel was a limitation in the first place hence such small change.
Water will cool better, but the way meth users get around that is simply by injecting more and more methanol.
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07-13-2013, 04:37 PM
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Which bit is scary ?
methanol injection or adding a small quantity to your fuel ?
It's commonplace here in the UK, simply because it is a very cheap upgrade over pump fuel. Havent heard of anyone doing it on n/a though, only boosted motors, they usually use around 15-20% on decent power boosted builds.
Obviously yes pure methanol burns almost invisibly, but anyone using a methanol injection kit will be well aware of that and all of the risks using methanol carries. That wont matter whether you're adding it to fuel or injecting it after. Methanol is dangerous stuff.
methanol injection or adding a small quantity to your fuel ?
It's commonplace here in the UK, simply because it is a very cheap upgrade over pump fuel. Havent heard of anyone doing it on n/a though, only boosted motors, they usually use around 15-20% on decent power boosted builds.
Obviously yes pure methanol burns almost invisibly, but anyone using a methanol injection kit will be well aware of that and all of the risks using methanol carries. That wont matter whether you're adding it to fuel or injecting it after. Methanol is dangerous stuff.
07-13-2013, 05:20 PM
#9
There would be more potential if the actual engine demanded it.
Example, it was a much higher CR to start with, so your fuel was a limitation.
Or if you maybe tried it with a lower grade fuel, then methanol might help restore it to a power level more akin to better fuel.
But in this case, doubtful the fuel was a limitation in the first place hence such small change.
Water will cool better, but the way meth users get around that is simply by injecting more and more methanol.
Example, it was a much higher CR to start with, so your fuel was a limitation.
Or if you maybe tried it with a lower grade fuel, then methanol might help restore it to a power level more akin to better fuel.
But in this case, doubtful the fuel was a limitation in the first place hence such small change.
Water will cool better, but the way meth users get around that is simply by injecting more and more methanol.
That's my point. NA cars don't demand it. Not on the level FI cars are. A high CR motor and running 93 octane should be fine. Meth will NOT give you more power. It allows you to run more timing and stay away from detonation. As the OP just proved, even adding the timing it's not a significant amount of power increase. It doesn't matter how much meth you are spraying. You won't add more power by spraying more meth. More meth will not always give you the better setup over a meth water mix.
07-13-2013, 11:25 PM
#10
427zm...what you have requested for graphs are exactly what I posted in the first two charts. Sorry if a little confusing in the post. Exact same tune, with and without meth, lose a few up top, get a bump down low, smoothed out the curve.
I think the fact that I can increase timing to 32* with no knock should tell folks that are limited to the low 20s that they should gain the ability to advance and increase hp. As I said, advancing from 26 to 30* gave me 25whp everywhere...because my timing was already at 30* I feared I wouldnt see much if any Increase from timing with meth. But I do like the hit (on the street) and smoothing out the curve feels good and should prolong the engines life.
Lots of folks run pure meth. Plain and simple **** THAT. I have worked with methanol extensively. It attacks your optic nerve and you develop a sensitivity to it after many exposures. I have seen this first hand and I am not filling my garage with meth vapor. Anyone that does is an idiot...period, sorry if I hurt your feelings. (Edit: i am using the washer tank, which is vented) Meth is also hygroscopic and will leach water from the air and continually dilute itself. The fact that it is highly flamable and burns invisibly is the third or fourth reason not to use it. Wanna trash your eyes and get headaches for the rest of your life? Then go enjoy the minty smell of methanol. I wear goggles (not glasses) and gloves and work in a vetilated area while holding my breath. I do so quickly. Sorry guys a touchy subject for me, but meth aint just any alcohol.
Nitro/meth should give me a significant increase. Water/meth has allowed me to keep my timing at (really beyond) the max power point in summer heat with summer fuel blend. I probably should have spent less on the system, but id still put one in again. The ping I was getting was pretty bad.
I think the fact that I can increase timing to 32* with no knock should tell folks that are limited to the low 20s that they should gain the ability to advance and increase hp. As I said, advancing from 26 to 30* gave me 25whp everywhere...because my timing was already at 30* I feared I wouldnt see much if any Increase from timing with meth. But I do like the hit (on the street) and smoothing out the curve feels good and should prolong the engines life.
Lots of folks run pure meth. Plain and simple **** THAT. I have worked with methanol extensively. It attacks your optic nerve and you develop a sensitivity to it after many exposures. I have seen this first hand and I am not filling my garage with meth vapor. Anyone that does is an idiot...period, sorry if I hurt your feelings. (Edit: i am using the washer tank, which is vented) Meth is also hygroscopic and will leach water from the air and continually dilute itself. The fact that it is highly flamable and burns invisibly is the third or fourth reason not to use it. Wanna trash your eyes and get headaches for the rest of your life? Then go enjoy the minty smell of methanol. I wear goggles (not glasses) and gloves and work in a vetilated area while holding my breath. I do so quickly. Sorry guys a touchy subject for me, but meth aint just any alcohol.
Nitro/meth should give me a significant increase. Water/meth has allowed me to keep my timing at (really beyond) the max power point in summer heat with summer fuel blend. I probably should have spent less on the system, but id still put one in again. The ping I was getting was pretty bad.
Last edited by therabidweasel; 07-14-2013 at 12:59 AM.
07-14-2013, 06:53 AM
#11
First and foremost, I applaud you for not only being the guinea pig, but following through and posting some well designed graphs. I agree on the EWP and coolant temp portion, but as we're shooting for "real" world results, I think it speaks for itself.
Just a few quick things-
Where was your IAT sensor located? Was it "seeing" the cooler air charge? I know for myself utilizing a SD tune, that little sensor is everything for me, ESPECIALLY is this heat and humidity my car is living in here in South Louisiana. Would the sensor even function if it were upstream of the nozzles?
I think another good point to be made, and I'm on mobile so I'm not taking the time to scroll up and give credit to who brought it up, but theoretically I think the Meth really allows you to run 87 octane at 30-50 cents a gallon cheaper, while still maintaining the same power.
And lastly, yes, now it makes me wonder what the Nitro boost would do....
I think for myself, if there WAS a MAF in my system it might be a bit more accurate instead of just injector duty cycle. I don't know though. Snow would have to step in here and explain that.
And I completely agree with what Methanol can do to you. We have a 550 gallon tote tank out here we draw several gallons a day from to inject into our BOP (Blow Out Preventer) to keep the hydrates from freezing up the rams. I work in the oilfield... Currently drilling a 27k foot well in 4500' of water... When the glycol wouldn't work anymore we swapped to methanol and what a nightmare it was rigging up the specific fire suppression system for it. Regular flame detectors don't work due to the fact that as stated, ***** invisible under combustion. My guys wear full PPE including SCBA's. Just can't take a chance with it.
If anyone would like, I can post the MSDS for it as well as the COSHH (control of hazardous substances dangerous to health) sheet. COSHH just breaks down the MSDS to Laymans terms so you can actually grasp the concept of what the MSDS is actually telling you.
Sorry for the long post. Again, thanks for the post and the testing and hopefully some heavy hitters can step in with their input as well.
Just a few quick things-
Where was your IAT sensor located? Was it "seeing" the cooler air charge? I know for myself utilizing a SD tune, that little sensor is everything for me, ESPECIALLY is this heat and humidity my car is living in here in South Louisiana. Would the sensor even function if it were upstream of the nozzles?
I think another good point to be made, and I'm on mobile so I'm not taking the time to scroll up and give credit to who brought it up, but theoretically I think the Meth really allows you to run 87 octane at 30-50 cents a gallon cheaper, while still maintaining the same power.
And lastly, yes, now it makes me wonder what the Nitro boost would do....
I think for myself, if there WAS a MAF in my system it might be a bit more accurate instead of just injector duty cycle. I don't know though. Snow would have to step in here and explain that.
And I completely agree with what Methanol can do to you. We have a 550 gallon tote tank out here we draw several gallons a day from to inject into our BOP (Blow Out Preventer) to keep the hydrates from freezing up the rams. I work in the oilfield... Currently drilling a 27k foot well in 4500' of water... When the glycol wouldn't work anymore we swapped to methanol and what a nightmare it was rigging up the specific fire suppression system for it. Regular flame detectors don't work due to the fact that as stated, ***** invisible under combustion. My guys wear full PPE including SCBA's. Just can't take a chance with it.
If anyone would like, I can post the MSDS for it as well as the COSHH (control of hazardous substances dangerous to health) sheet. COSHH just breaks down the MSDS to Laymans terms so you can actually grasp the concept of what the MSDS is actually telling you.
Sorry for the long post. Again, thanks for the post and the testing and hopefully some heavy hitters can step in with their input as well.
07-14-2013, 08:51 AM
#12
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First and foremost, I applaud you for not only being the guinea pig, but following through and posting some well designed graphs. I agree on the EWP and coolant temp portion, but as we're shooting for "real" world results, I think it speaks for itself.
Just a few quick things-
Where was your IAT sensor located? Was it "seeing" the cooler air charge? I know for myself utilizing a SD tune, that little sensor is everything for me, ESPECIALLY is this heat and humidity my car is living in here in South Louisiana. Would the sensor even function if it were upstream of the nozzles?
I think another good point to be made, and I'm on mobile so I'm not taking the time to scroll up and give credit to who brought it up, but theoretically I think the Meth really allows you to run 87 octane at 30-50 cents a gallon cheaper, while still maintaining the same power.
And lastly, yes, now it makes me wonder what the Nitro boost would do....
I think for myself, if there WAS a MAF in my system it might be a bit more accurate instead of just injector duty cycle. I don't know though. Snow would have to step in here and explain that.
And I completely agree with what Methanol can do to you. We have a 550 gallon tote tank out here we draw several gallons a day from to inject into our BOP (Blow Out Preventer) to keep the hydrates from freezing up the rams. I work in the oilfield... Currently drilling a 27k foot well in 4500' of water... When the glycol wouldn't work anymore we swapped to methanol and what a nightmare it was rigging up the specific fire suppression system for it. Regular flame detectors don't work due to the fact that as stated, ***** invisible under combustion. My guys wear full PPE including SCBA's. Just can't take a chance with it.
If anyone would like, I can post the MSDS for it as well as the COSHH (control of hazardous substances dangerous to health) sheet. COSHH just breaks down the MSDS to Laymans terms so you can actually grasp the concept of what the MSDS is actually telling you.
Sorry for the long post. Again, thanks for the post and the testing and hopefully some heavy hitters can step in with their input as well.
Just a few quick things-
Where was your IAT sensor located? Was it "seeing" the cooler air charge? I know for myself utilizing a SD tune, that little sensor is everything for me, ESPECIALLY is this heat and humidity my car is living in here in South Louisiana. Would the sensor even function if it were upstream of the nozzles?
I think another good point to be made, and I'm on mobile so I'm not taking the time to scroll up and give credit to who brought it up, but theoretically I think the Meth really allows you to run 87 octane at 30-50 cents a gallon cheaper, while still maintaining the same power.
And lastly, yes, now it makes me wonder what the Nitro boost would do....
I think for myself, if there WAS a MAF in my system it might be a bit more accurate instead of just injector duty cycle. I don't know though. Snow would have to step in here and explain that.
And I completely agree with what Methanol can do to you. We have a 550 gallon tote tank out here we draw several gallons a day from to inject into our BOP (Blow Out Preventer) to keep the hydrates from freezing up the rams. I work in the oilfield... Currently drilling a 27k foot well in 4500' of water... When the glycol wouldn't work anymore we swapped to methanol and what a nightmare it was rigging up the specific fire suppression system for it. Regular flame detectors don't work due to the fact that as stated, ***** invisible under combustion. My guys wear full PPE including SCBA's. Just can't take a chance with it.
If anyone would like, I can post the MSDS for it as well as the COSHH (control of hazardous substances dangerous to health) sheet. COSHH just breaks down the MSDS to Laymans terms so you can actually grasp the concept of what the MSDS is actually telling you.
Sorry for the long post. Again, thanks for the post and the testing and hopefully some heavy hitters can step in with their input as well.
07-14-2013, 09:11 AM
#13
Dr, I'd love to see the MSDS sheets on Meth. It be good to see it, and at the same time, let everyone see it can be a scary deal if something bad goes down. Truly, I don't think the results are half bad, as you mentioned, the IAT temps are what I see as being key. Like you, living in Texas, high ambient temps, mixed w/ high humidity can take serious power away from your car, and I believe if nothing else, it would keep our power levels consistent. This is why I'd love to see the power level at the already run 30* of timing. IAT's would be great to see as well.
My IAT is in the MAF. Doesnt see the meth at all.
Also I had a look at the partial pressure of methanol at various dilutions and even 50/50 is pretty high at 80ish degrees. I had remembered incorrectly that it was well below 1atm at that dilution. This actually may be a problem for me. Im going to look into putting some check valves on the tank.
07-14-2013, 09:29 AM
#14
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427zm..thats the first two graphs And redescribed Iin my 2nd post.
My IAT is in the MAF. Doesnt see the meth at all.
Also I had a look at the partial pressure of methanol at various dilutions and even 50/50 is pretty high at 80ish degrees. I had remembered incorrectly that it was well below 1atm at that dilution. This actually may be a problem for me. Im going to look into putting some check valves on the tank.
My IAT is in the MAF. Doesnt see the meth at all.
Also I had a look at the partial pressure of methanol at various dilutions and even 50/50 is pretty high at 80ish degrees. I had remembered incorrectly that it was well below 1atm at that dilution. This actually may be a problem for me. Im going to look into putting some check valves on the tank.
07-15-2013, 10:36 AM
#16
07-15-2013, 01:10 PM
#17
The reason you're losing power up top is that meth has a very low energy density. At that point, it is simply taking the place of air, that would otherwise be combusted. Switch to 100% as stated and you'll see more gain, but you'd have made 3 times as much power with a vacuum pump, with 10% of the headache and no need to deal with a secondary fuel source plumbed with gardening irrigation pumps, lines and fittings.
07-15-2013, 01:29 PM
#18
You could try it again to see, but I don't see any gains in any substantial amount by switching to pure methanol. It's not going to do anything extra that running race gas would do. Just more of the same, allow for keeping you away from detonation and run the higher timing.
I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and it seems as others disagree with me. But again, I don't see any gains that are substantial enough here to warrant the price of a meth injection kit.
I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and it seems as others disagree with me. But again, I don't see any gains that are substantial enough here to warrant the price of a meth injection kit.
07-15-2013, 07:49 PM
#19
dr_whigham First and foremost, I applaud you for not only being the guinea pig, but following through and posting some well designed graphs. I agree on the EWP and coolant temp portion, but as we're shooting for "real" world results, I think it speaks for itself.
Martin@Tick You're limited by octane, you don't have high IAT's...IMO there is no need for water in the mixture. As Stevie has said, you would of seen the gains you were looking for had you used 100% methanol.
black06g85
do you still have the timing adders setup for iat temps? if so, it's still seeing the 90+ degrees coming in and pulling timing. unless the tuner zero'd em out for the dyno session.
do you still have the timing adders setup for iat temps? if so, it's still seeing the 90+ degrees coming in and pulling timing. unless the tuner zero'd em out for the dyno session.
DietCoke The reason you're losing power up top is that meth has a very low energy density. At that point, it is simply taking the place of air, that would otherwise be combusted. Switch to 100% as stated and you'll see more gain, but you'd have made 3 times as much power with a vacuum pump, with 10% of the headache and no need to deal with a secondary fuel source plumbed with gardening irrigation pumps, lines and fittings.
CALL911 You could try it again to see, but I don't see any gains in any substantial amount by switching to pure methanol. It's not going to do anything extra that running race gas would do. Just more of the same, allow for keeping you away from detonation and run the higher timing.
I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and it seems as others disagree with me. But again, I don't see any gains that are substantial enough here to warrant the price of a meth injection kit.
I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and it seems as others disagree with me. But again, I don't see any gains that are substantial enough here to warrant the price of a meth injection kit.
I'd love to have proved you wrong too, but everything I have seen has said you were right. Like I said though, it is allowing me to keep my original timing which was my minimum goal (that's at least +12hp right there), and it has even given me a little bit. Had I bought a cheap kit I think the price paid would be very acceptable for the ability to keep and even advance timing. I figured in for a penny, so I just took the whole plunge. Still, if I can gain 20+whp off nitro I'd be more than jazzed. . .at an additional $30 per tank of gas at my current rate of meth consumption, LOL.
