Awful dyno numbers need advice
Awful dyno numbers need advice I wish I could post a pic of the graph...Mods are as follows:
99 camaro ss m6
TSP MS3 cam
LS6 Intake Manifold
SLP Cold Air Intake
SLP lid
flowtech longtubes
off road ypipe
open cutout
4.10s on a 12 bolt
365.3 rwhp 336.8 torque
Can anyone explain this?? The rev limiter goes up to 6800 rpm and it makes power up to 6500 rpm. The Air Fuel is a steady 12.5-13. Timing is 29 degrees. And the curves cross paths at 5250 rpm. So What gives?? He didn't do a baseline dyno so I have no idea on what the gains were. But the torque seems horribly low. And I thought most people put atleast 390 rwhp on this setup. He also said something suspicious that right after the cam/ls6 intake install it made about 360 rwhp so his tune only gave me about 6 hp. What gives?? Any ideas??
99 camaro ss m6
TSP MS3 cam
LS6 Intake Manifold
SLP Cold Air Intake
SLP lid
flowtech longtubes
off road ypipe
open cutout
4.10s on a 12 bolt
365.3 rwhp 336.8 torque
Can anyone explain this?? The rev limiter goes up to 6800 rpm and it makes power up to 6500 rpm. The Air Fuel is a steady 12.5-13. Timing is 29 degrees. And the curves cross paths at 5250 rpm. So What gives?? He didn't do a baseline dyno so I have no idea on what the gains were. But the torque seems horribly low. And I thought most people put atleast 390 rwhp on this setup. He also said something suspicious that right after the cam/ls6 intake install it made about 360 rwhp so his tune only gave me about 6 hp. What gives?? Any ideas??
well,i would scan it to make sure nothing is wrong as far as 02 sensors or the like.was the cam installed correctly?(not advanced or retarded)i'm not too familar with what most people are putting down with that cam,but your numbers do seem a little low.i would do at least a compression check to make sure your motor is healthy.
Some things you can check,
Cam timing (dyno graph would indicate this), any intake leaks (carb cleaner works well), a good set of heads would help too, and it may sound silly, but make sure the traction control button wasn't on, very simple mistake, and timing could come down a point or two if everything else is good. JMHO.
Cam timing (dyno graph would indicate this), any intake leaks (carb cleaner works well), a good set of heads would help too, and it may sound silly, but make sure the traction control button wasn't on, very simple mistake, and timing could come down a point or two if everything else is good. JMHO.
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The compression check came back fine. (185-190) The curve is nice and makes power all the way up to 6500 so it's not the wrong cam. Even if it was the wrong cam it would make more torque than 335. The teeth are lined properly. The cam was not degreed but the compression being right would rule out the cam hitting any valves. I've been talking with TSP (who I bought the cam from) and Mike Norris (who installed the cam) None of us can figure it out. Because it was not baselined we have no previous numbers to compare to but the car was not a dog by any means. I was trapping 107 with just a lid and CAI.
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This is definitely an oddball for sure. Since we did not do a baseline we do not have any idea on where the car was originally.
I did have a 2002 SS M6 that cam in with pretty much full bolt-ons less an underdrive pulley and had high flow cats. That car made 305-310RWHP which is less then a stock 2002 SS M6 would be. We added an AFR heads/cam package that yielded a 95-100RWHP gain whuch was very good, but still short of expectations.
Lets say this car was a "dud" such as the other SS, a 50-60HP gain with the cam is not bad, but still off. The biggest head scratcher to me is the torque being barely better then stock or at least a bolt-on car. We did not get to degree the cam because it did not have one. I am guessing a improperly ground cam or maybe even a bad timing set. A Rollmaster was supplied by the customer also along with all the other parts.
All sensor readings look good as well as timing and air/fuel. The car starts great hot or cold and idles very well. Much better then I would expect which makes me think more it may be wrong or a grind issue. On cars we have had here a tooth off, usually the HP and TQ are about the same but low, and the peak is usually wrong. But they still usually feel like they run well.
The worst part is that 96DubyaS-6 has to pay for all this diagnosis and/or other parts replacement labor to figure it out. add that to our over booked situation and quite the problem. we will work with him to get it sorted. right now I believe he is waiting to see what TSP says based on our test results. too much fun sometimes.
Maybe some of y'all have some other suggestions.
Mike Norris
I did have a 2002 SS M6 that cam in with pretty much full bolt-ons less an underdrive pulley and had high flow cats. That car made 305-310RWHP which is less then a stock 2002 SS M6 would be. We added an AFR heads/cam package that yielded a 95-100RWHP gain whuch was very good, but still short of expectations.
Lets say this car was a "dud" such as the other SS, a 50-60HP gain with the cam is not bad, but still off. The biggest head scratcher to me is the torque being barely better then stock or at least a bolt-on car. We did not get to degree the cam because it did not have one. I am guessing a improperly ground cam or maybe even a bad timing set. A Rollmaster was supplied by the customer also along with all the other parts.
All sensor readings look good as well as timing and air/fuel. The car starts great hot or cold and idles very well. Much better then I would expect which makes me think more it may be wrong or a grind issue. On cars we have had here a tooth off, usually the HP and TQ are about the same but low, and the peak is usually wrong. But they still usually feel like they run well.
The worst part is that 96DubyaS-6 has to pay for all this diagnosis and/or other parts replacement labor to figure it out. add that to our over booked situation and quite the problem. we will work with him to get it sorted. right now I believe he is waiting to see what TSP says based on our test results. too much fun sometimes.
Maybe some of y'all have some other suggestions.
Mike Norris
were there any codes fired? were there any leaks when the intake manifold was put on?
I know when i had my heads/cam installed the tuner told me that he had to richen it up because my lsx intake did not seal 100%.
make sure also that the throttle body is opening 100% and your getting WOT, thats always a possibility, but then again, if you were goin to 6800 rpm, im sure it probably was...
I know when i had my heads/cam installed the tuner told me that he had to richen it up because my lsx intake did not seal 100%.
make sure also that the throttle body is opening 100% and your getting WOT, thats always a possibility, but then again, if you were goin to 6800 rpm, im sure it probably was...
are your knock sensors ok? Thats the only other thing I can think of that might be causing the low #'s.
If you've got an ORY and its banging around especially at WOT this will cause the kncck sensors to go off casing a serious decrease in power like what you're experiencing
If you've got an ORY and its banging around especially at WOT this will cause the kncck sensors to go off casing a serious decrease in power like what you're experiencing
Hey Guys,
Quick add-on with the last comments. No code issues, no intake leaks (has LS6 intake) and no knock retard. I do agree that it should head to the track to see what has been gained. Like i said previously, the torque reading is the head scratcher here for now.
Mike Norris
Quick add-on with the last comments. No code issues, no intake leaks (has LS6 intake) and no knock retard. I do agree that it should head to the track to see what has been gained. Like i said previously, the torque reading is the head scratcher here for now.
Mike Norris
It is my car being discussed here I just used a friends screenname because I was at his house. Like Mike said, the AF ratio and compression numbers were fine. The O2s threw no codes. I drove the cam home in I4 traffic this afternoon but I never got on it. It was raining and stop and go. I will take it to 
Bithlo tomorrow night and see what it traps at. Then I will resume talks with Trevor at TSP. He has been very helpful. As Mike stated, the torque is impossible to explain. Even if it is a wrong grind on the cam it's hard to explain how ANY aftermarket cam would put down torque numbers easily achievable with very light bolt ons.
Bithlo tomorrow night and see what it traps at. Then I will resume talks with Trevor at TSP. He has been very helpful. As Mike stated, the torque is impossible to explain. Even if it is a wrong grind on the cam it's hard to explain how ANY aftermarket cam would put down torque numbers easily achievable with very light bolt ons. 
Im not sure why noone has mentioned that 12.5 -13 AFR is too low for a NA car. You want 14.7 area. Not over but not alot under. Also what is teh timing at at peak TQ and redline? With the TQ being so low i imagine you have very little timing. GL man
John
John
Originally Posted by 99SS-T
Im not sure why noone has mentioned that 12.5 -13 AFR is too low for a NA car. You want 14.7 area. Not over but not alot under. Also what is teh timing at at peak TQ and redline? With the TQ being so low i imagine you have very little timing. GL man
John
John
Whaaaaat?? 14.7? I've never heard this. TSP and Mike both looked at the dyno graph with the 13 afr and said it was fine. Can anyone else confirm the air fuel ratio needing to be higher? Also peak tq and hp were 29 degrees timing I believe.
