Living on the Edge. Why?
Living on the Edge. Why? This question spans several forums but I ask here since the forced induction crew best fit the description. If you read through this section on a regular basis, you will see a number of engine damage threads. And, along with those are warnings to monitor this and that. So we all spend a bunch of money on fuel pressure, IAT, fuel/air ratio gauges and do regular data logging.
My question is Why doesn't the computer handle these tasks? It seems to me adding a wideband O2 to the first location on each bank, pyrometers to each exhaust port, and maybe a better manifold pressure sensor should give enough data to work with? Couldn't the car computer or a added computer do a better job of monitoring and taking corrective or protective action? Add a electronic waste gate to the mix and it could dump boost if the whole engine or a cylinder goes lean. Or, if it starts knocking.
Am I asking for to much?
My question is Why doesn't the computer handle these tasks? It seems to me adding a wideband O2 to the first location on each bank, pyrometers to each exhaust port, and maybe a better manifold pressure sensor should give enough data to work with? Couldn't the car computer or a added computer do a better job of monitoring and taking corrective or protective action? Add a electronic waste gate to the mix and it could dump boost if the whole engine or a cylinder goes lean. Or, if it starts knocking.
Am I asking for to much?
Some nitrous guys have told me over the years that they had custom pcm programming that included retarding more timing when the IAT's got over a certain value...
I wonder if that's doable with a stock pcm and boost, and if so, what folks have done.
I wonder if that's doable with a stock pcm and boost, and if so, what folks have done.
I am not stuck on using the factory pcm. I don't know if it has the ability to add more data acquisition? There are factory super cars with twin turbo setups and they live long lives. My guess is the sensors and programming keep everything in a safe mode? We get a tune and then do the monitoring for variables. I know it would be a costly investment, but so it a forged motor. I am just thinking out loud.
That is how mine is done. Starts pulling timing at 110* iat.
I am not stuck on using the factory pcm. I don't know if it has the ability to add more data acquisition? There are factory super cars with twin turbo setups and they live long lives. My guess is the sensors and programming keep everything in a safe mode? We get a tune and then do the monitoring for variables. I know it would be a costly investment, but so it a forged motor. I am just thinking out loud.
Wow a 7k computer set up for a 800+ hp car is way beyond my budget. Its a f boat gm had nothing in mind about turbos and supercharges. I would love to have that type of pcm set up but for a street car its alittle tooo much. Any person on this site can tell you they use a very safe tune because a good safe tune will help the motor last a bit longer. Now tune for all the power you can get and daily driving it is a different beast. I would loveto see a pcm with built in safe guards that requires the user and tuner set values to protect the motor but imho it would be a fourtine.
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When I went FI I invested about $600 in a J&S Safeguard Intelligent Knock Controller and a dash monitor. It is a digital signal processor that can detect knock a lot more accurately than a simple sensor, and once detected, it will retard only those cylinders it heard knock. I run a solid roller cam which confuses most factory setups, but I really wanted some protection since under acceleration in most cars you can't hear a thing.
Well, 5 years later and a lot of self-tuning, I have never had a problem with detonation nor any visible signs of it on my plugs. I've gotten up into the mid-600rwhp area. I consider it one of the best investments I've made since when you are tuning and testing under WOT, we all know that even a typo (like entering a 25 instead of a 255, ask me how I know!) can do some major damage. I'm surprised more people here don't use them - they are part of the success of a lot of other tuners like Dinan (on turbo/SC BMWs) and the Subie crowd.
Jim
Well, 5 years later and a lot of self-tuning, I have never had a problem with detonation nor any visible signs of it on my plugs. I've gotten up into the mid-600rwhp area. I consider it one of the best investments I've made since when you are tuning and testing under WOT, we all know that even a typo (like entering a 25 instead of a 255, ask me how I know!) can do some major damage. I'm surprised more people here don't use them - they are part of the success of a lot of other tuners like Dinan (on turbo/SC BMWs) and the Subie crowd.
Jim
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Verdad Gallardo The guys making 550 HP up and driving on the street probably are to busy under acceleration to monitor to much until you get into third or forth gear. I guess the consensus is you do the best you can with the tune and hope nothing goes out of range causing major damage. If the cost of a computer that can monitor and adapt is $7k (?) it really is out of reach.
Been there/Done that This is EXACTLY why i only tunned my ride to 9 psi (633) HP instead of the 15 psi i originally built my setup for. Ive (been there and done that) all ready with my 87 GN some years back and worked on the car more then i drove it because i pushed her to the limit with the boost. Unless its a strictly track ride theres no reason to push the setup to its limits LOL Unless you have the cash and time which i no longer have LOL
If your OEM computer doesn't support it, an intermediate step might be a datalogging unit. I know Edelbrock, FJO Racing and (IIRC) AEM all make them. For maybe $800-1000 you could monitor and log all the most critical parameters in your setup, and use thresholds to set off alarms if something badly wrong, like loss of oil or fuel pressure.
I am running the Holley Commander 950 Pro w/wideband on my FI setup. When I make changes, I save a new file, then go out and datalog on a run or two, then come back and tweak stuff until it's perfect. The wideband makes stuff so easy - I just read my datalogs and at each point I can see exactly what my AFR is and all the other stuff, injector duty cycle %, IATs, TPS. I'd never go back to a system that doesn't log. Think about it - how much money would you save on tuning if you could record your runs and tune yourself?
I'm not sure if the J&S is plug n play for the F-bod, take a look at their site and contact John, it's www.jandssafeguard.com, and maybe their vampire unit looks right for your LSx setup. Good quality stuff too.
Jim
I am running the Holley Commander 950 Pro w/wideband on my FI setup. When I make changes, I save a new file, then go out and datalog on a run or two, then come back and tweak stuff until it's perfect. The wideband makes stuff so easy - I just read my datalogs and at each point I can see exactly what my AFR is and all the other stuff, injector duty cycle %, IATs, TPS. I'd never go back to a system that doesn't log. Think about it - how much money would you save on tuning if you could record your runs and tune yourself?
I'm not sure if the J&S is plug n play for the F-bod, take a look at their site and contact John, it's www.jandssafeguard.com, and maybe their vampire unit looks right for your LSx setup. Good quality stuff too.
Jim
DeltaT, that is very cool. I sent them an e-mail asking if they supported the LS series motors. I see the Ford guys are already covered. I need to read more on knock and the things that can cause it.
lightweights, lean it out until it melts the pistons out of it then richen it up a little..
A BS3, AEM, FAST etc will wideband correct the a/f at WOT, I havent used any closed loop wideband controlled standalones except a BS3 and its really hard to blow up your stuff with it.
A BS3, AEM, FAST etc will wideband correct the a/f at WOT, I havent used any closed loop wideband controlled standalones except a BS3 and its really hard to blow up your stuff with it.
Teching In
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The Vampire coil on plug version only works on "two wire" coils. I have a version in the works for "four wire" GM coils.
None of the Ford forced induction engines were knock sensor equipped. There's a thread on modularfords that the 2010 GT's are coming with knock sensors.
I thought the Vampire would be a no brainer to the Ford guys but they just don't believe in them. The tuners say "bring your car to me and I will give you a safe tune".
The Vampire coil on plug version only works on "two wire" coils. I have a version in the works for "four wire" GM coils.
None of the Ford forced induction engines were knock sensor equipped. There's a thread on modularfords that the 2010 GT's are coming with knock sensors.
I thought the Vampire would be a no brainer to the Ford guys but they just don't believe in them. The tuners say "bring your car to me and I will give you a safe tune".
Badge:
The Vampire coil on plug version only works on "two wire" coils. I have a version in the works for "four wire" GM coils.
None of the Ford forced induction engines were knock sensor equipped. There's a thread on modularfords that the 2010 GT's are coming with knock sensors.
I thought the Vampire would be a no brainer to the Ford guys but they just don't believe in them. The tuners say "bring your car to me and I will give you a safe tune".
The Vampire coil on plug version only works on "two wire" coils. I have a version in the works for "four wire" GM coils.
None of the Ford forced induction engines were knock sensor equipped. There's a thread on modularfords that the 2010 GT's are coming with knock sensors.
I thought the Vampire would be a no brainer to the Ford guys but they just don't believe in them. The tuners say "bring your car to me and I will give you a safe tune".
