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Looking at twin MP T-60s. Questions

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Old 09-06-2010, 11:28 PM
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Default Looking at twin MP T-60s. Questions

This is for a stock cubed ls1. What a/r should I be looking at getting? If they are .50 each, does that add up to 1.00 a/r or all dynamics different with 2 turbos? Does anyone know the size of the inlet on these? Downpipe size?

Before anyone asks "why step up to 2 turbos when 1 will be fine?" The fact of the matter is our winters last from October- April and I need something to do for all those months. :p
Old 09-06-2010, 11:55 PM
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biggest T3 stg 3 or smallest ptrim.
a/r only relates to same size turbine wheel

I don't recall what the T60 really measures, but you want at least a 58mm.
Old 09-06-2010, 11:56 PM
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Ive been turboed for over a year now and I still dont fully grasp the whole idea of the turbo and what affects spool. Its pretty sad really, lol
Old 09-07-2010, 12:03 AM
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Most succinct way I've found to explain a few things.

From Inductionmotorsports.com
"Assuming that both setups are capable of the same amount of max power, what's better, two small turbos or one big turbo?"

Twin turbos will spool faster if the comparison is apples to apples. In other words, don't pair two 10-year-old junk yard turbos up against one brand new GT turbo and call it a fair shootout. If the twins and the single all share similar wheel technology (aerodynamics and materials) then the twins will out-spool the single. It's true that each of the twin turbos will only get half of the exhaust energy but the inertia (the resistance to a change in rpm) of the wheel is proportional to the 5th power of its diameter -- a wheel that is only 15% larger in diameter will have twice the inertia of the smaller wheel. So small changes in wheel diameter make huge changes in spool.

Second point, a single turbo is more efficient than twins because the tolerances inside the housings are roughly the same on all turbos, independent of the overall size. This means that 1/8" of clearance, for example, on a 15" housing amounts to a lower percentage of air gap (and a higher efficiency percentage) than 1/8" of clearance on a 6" housing.

Bottom line: once you get the things spooled, the single will produce more efficient boost, but the twins will make boost sooner.



"What's better, low compression and more boost or high compression and less boost?"

There are certainly reasons to try to raise compression ratio, namely when off-boost performance matters, like on a street car, or when using a very small displacement motor. but when talking purely about on-boost power potential, compression just doesn't make any sense.

People have tested the power effects of raising compression for decades, and the most optimistic results are about 3% more power with an additional point of compression (going from 9:1 to 10:1, for example). All combinations will be limited by detonation at some boost and timing threshold, regardless of the fuel used. The decrease in compression allows you to run more boost, which introduces more oxygen into the cylinder. Raising the boost from 14psi to 15psi (just a 1psi increase) adds an additional 3.4% of oxygen. So right there, you are already past the break even mark of losing a point of compression. And obviously, lowering the compression a full point allows you to run much more than 1 additional psi of boost. In other words, you always pick up more power by adding boost and lowering compression, because power potential is based primarily on your ability to burn fuel, and that is directly proportional to the amount of oxygen that you have in the cylinder. Raising compression doesn't change the amount of oxygen/fuel in the cylinder, it just squeezes it a bit more.

So the big question becomes, how much boost do we gain for X amount of compression? The best method we have found is to calculate the effective compression ratio (ECR) with boost. The problem is that most people use an incorrect formula that says that 14.7psi of boost on a 8.5:1 motor is a 17:1 ECR. So how in the world do people get away with this combination on pump gas? You can't even idle down the street on pump gas on a true 17:1 compression motor. Here's the real formula to use:

sqrt((boost+14.7)/14.7) * CR = ECR

sqrt = square root
boost = psi of boost
CR = static compression ratio of the motor
ECR = effective compression ratio

So our above example gives an ECR of 12.0:1. This makes perfect sense, because 12:1 is considered to be the max safe limit with aluminum heads on pump gas, and 15psi is about as much boost as you can safely run before you at least start losing a significant amount of timing to knock. Of course every motor is different, and no formula is going to be perfect for all combinations, but this one is vastly better than the standard formula (which leaves out the square root).

So now we can target a certain ECR, say 12.0:1. We see that at 8.5:1 CR we can run 14.7psi of boost. But at 7.5:1 we can run 23psi of boost (and still maintain the 12.0:1 ECR). We only gave up 1 point of compression (3% max power) and yet we gained 28% more oxygen (28% more power potential). Suddenly it's quite obvious why top fuel is running 5:1 compression, that's where all the power is!!

8.5:1 turns out to be a real good all around number for on and off boost performance. Many "performance" NA motors are only 9.0:1 so we're not far off of that, and yet we're low enough to run 30+ psi without problems (provided that a proper fuel is used).



"I've got a 500+ CID motor and I'm looking to make 900hp. Can I use a GT42, I've heard they can make 900hp?"

Nope! There's nothing wrong with the GT42, it will definitely make 900hp, just not in this scenario. Here's why: 900hp represents a fairly constant amount of air/fuel mixture, regardless of whether it's being made by a small motor at high boost (eg. 183ci at 32psi) or a large motor at low boost (eg. 502ci at 10psi).

The first problem is that most compressors are only able to reach their maximum airflow when they are running at high boost levels. For example, a GT42 is able to flow about 94lbs/min of air at 32psi of boost, but it can only flow around 64lbs/min of air at 10psi. Often people are quick to assume that high boost means high heat and therefore decreased efficiency, but in reality, it takes higher boost levels to put most turbos into their "sweet spot". In this particular example, the turbo is capable of almost 50% more HP at high boost levels than it is at low boost levels.

The other problem is related to backpressure. If the exhaust system (headers, turbine, downpipe, etc.) is the same between both motors, the backpressure will be roughly the same. Let's say the backpressure measures at 48psi between the motor and turbine. The big motor will run into a bottleneck because there is 48psi in the exhaust and only 10psi in the intake (a 4.8:1 ratio). This keeps the cylinder from scavenging/filling fully and therefore limits power. The small motor, on the other hand, has 32psi of boost (only a 1.5:1 ratio) to push against the backpressure. Therefore it is able to be much more efficient under these conditions.

The bottom line is, as your motor size increases, your boost level will go down (in order to achieve the same power level). In such a case you will need to maximize the flow potential of your compressor and minimize the restriction of your exhaust system (including the turbine) in order to reach your power goals.
From Rick Head
Turbine wheel diameter = flow/power potential. Turbine A/R is a tuning tool, a window of operation. It has more to do with where a turbo starts to accelerate in a given application. The idea here is to provide the broadest power and torque curve possible.
Old 09-07-2010, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboS10
biggest T3 stg 3 or smallest ptrim.
a/r only relates to same size turbine wheel

I don't recall what the T60 really measures, but you want at least a 58mm.
What defines this measurement? Inducer? Excuder? Trim?
Old 09-07-2010, 12:21 AM
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Trim means very little since it is based on Ind & Exc diameter which is different for each specific wheel. Rough example, you can have a 60 trim 50mm and 70mm compressor wheel.
Inducer or smallest diameter of either wheel is the main flow limiter.

Check out the Garret catalog or the stickies on The Turbo Forums for more info.
Old 09-07-2010, 12:28 AM
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https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/867510-will-pair-t04es-spool-quick-383-a.html

With better heads or more rpm, the boost for same HP goes down. This means an upsize in housing or turbine or both to keep E/I pr in check.
Old 09-07-2010, 12:32 AM
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Heres the specs on it.
Compressor: Inducer 60.5/Excuder 84. Turbine: Inducer 64.5/Excuder 74.

Based on what youre saying the smallest number of either wheel is going to be limiting factor. So it looks like this t60, is a 60mm amirite?
Old 09-07-2010, 12:53 AM
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Correct it's basically a 60mm ptrim
They will spool a little slower than you T70 but make more power up top and rev higher.
Some people say the 58mm O trim turbine works just fine on a 350 twin setup.
Old 09-07-2010, 12:56 AM
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Would my cam choice play a role in my turbo choice?? Would these turbos hold up to about 6k or so RPMs just fine? I noticed my t70 starts dropping off a little before then.
Old 09-07-2010, 02:08 AM
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cam is based on rpm desired and BP.
Cam isn't too critical based on all the different stuff people try as long as the turbine and cam are close in power range.

2 65mm turbines will support 1k hp on a 400 cid.
With a stick and all stock ls1, I think the O trim super 60 might be a better choice for 6k and 14psi or so.
For a cam and some rpm with better heads, twin T61 .68 ar ptrims will go 9's easy with a stick and lazy launch. 8's with the right setup.
Not really sure what your trying to do. But 60-1's are plenty for street tires.

Not sure what a 60 Trim is as listed in link...
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...=2&map_sel0=61
Old 09-08-2010, 04:14 PM
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Bump! I just got funding for this project so it looks like twins are a green light.

Anyone else have suggestions as to which turbos to go with?
Old 09-08-2010, 07:20 PM
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i wish i had twin 60s. i bought twin t70s cheap now im having to do all kinds of stuff to make sure it will work and not surge

huge cam
7200 rpm limit
springs etc

i think the 60s would be amazing on your build. have you used this site?

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/
Old 09-08-2010, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 71 chevy
i wish i had twin 60s. i bought twin t70s cheap now im having to do all kinds of stuff to make sure it will work and not surge

huge cam
7200 rpm limit
springs etc

i think the 60s would be amazing on your build. have you used this site?

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/
Ive used it, it just doesnt seem super accurate. According to the calc my t70 is totally inefficient lol
Old 09-08-2010, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by XtremeDime
Ive used it, it just doesnt seem super accurate. According to the calc my t70 is totally inefficient lol
garbage in garbage out

calc used by squirrel is the same as listed in Garret catalog.
it makes no allowance for corked up exhaust which will mask the small compressor.

T70's work real well on stock 302's.

two ways to do it -small fast spinning compressor
big slow spinning compressor

Last edited by TurboS10; 09-09-2010 at 12:00 AM.
Old 09-09-2010, 03:20 AM
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Ok so, Ive kinda narrowed it down between 3 turbos.
810027 T-60-P Trim Turbine:60.5mm/84mm Compressor:74mm/76mm
810001 Super60-P Trim Turbine:58.1mm/84mm Compressor: 74mm/76mm
802300 60-1-P Trim Turbine:58.1mm/76mm Compressor:64.5mm/74mm

Assuming the 60-1 would spool quickest but will it choke out before 6k RPMs? Kinda hard to find compressor maps for Master Power turbos...
Old 09-09-2010, 11:41 PM
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Twin Ptrim will not choke at 6k.
Twin MPT70 Ptrim will go 8's on 400cid.
I couldn't find a map for a T60.
60-1 map had most room for more cylinderhead
802300-068 60-1 / P-TRIM 500-600 .70 101.7 64.0 58.1 76.0 58 6 .68 T4 V-BAND UNDIVIDED 64.5 74.0

No telling which map to use because MP seems to have mix and match housings and wheels. The one above is demensionally a to4e60 trim wheel w/ T series cover.
Old 09-09-2010, 11:50 PM
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Why does the 60-1 have the most room? Because its a 58 trim?
Old 09-10-2010, 12:19 AM
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Compressor trim means Zero. Says so in Tnetics catalog.....

60-1 was running on the left side of the map when I stuck it into the squirrel calc.
Which is a tnetics 60-1. The TO4E 60trim was perfect in the middle.

Might try a search for 60-1 on TTF. I know Turbo Dave ran real ones on a 355 w/.68 p's.
Went bigger a/r to help with wheel spin on the street at low speed.
Intmd8 ran T61 p's with stick on 383LT1? Did 9's with 218 HR cam
INTMD8 turbo Camaro SS
Left side means you have more flow left in the compressor before it chokes or over speeds. Middle of map is ideal.

Here are the real tnetics wheel specs.
http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/comp_wheels.html


A picture of the MP wheel & Tnetics wheel might help with which map to use. IDK.
Old 09-10-2010, 12:26 AM
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58-61mm seems to be a toss up on turbine sizing.
Tnetics sells them with a 62mm turbine now.

Also, don't use an OC turbine housing. I have some on 58mm H3's w/ptrim that didn't work at all on a LS1 for Tom Nelson. One of these days I'll buy some tang housings for them and stick them on something.



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