convince me...SC or Turbo
01-06-2011, 12:54 AM
#61
Either one can cause damage but turbos have had more failures in that manner. Pulley changes can literally take 15min if your decent with a wrench. Also, prochargers have the least amount of parasitic loss out of all the blowers. The stepup ratios help out quite a bit. If you run asters bracket you most likely wont have any belt slip problems as well. I personally like the sound of a N/A car with boosted benefits lol You can get away with a little more agresive cam without muffling it as well. Try out a blower car...you wont be sorry. I've also noticed traction is just a touch better with a blower car as stated that the boost comes in linear and not down low. Plus you can keep your 4.11's without worry about spooling. Like LS2Bait said...it sounds like hell is opening up and is gonna **** some **** up...even the 450rwhp blown cars sound mean as hell lol
01-06-2011, 02:03 AM
#62
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The reason I went turbo over SC is because I live in Alaska and our winters last about 7-8 months so I needed something to keep me busy and get more experience working on cars. With a supercharger you could literally be done in a weekend, and learn next to nothing due to the minimal amount of work involved.
Also, I hate the sound of a supercharger, it sounds like **** to me.
Also, I hate the sound of a supercharger, it sounds like **** to me.
01-06-2011, 10:21 AM
#63
I personnaly love a blown 4th gen Camaro that also has a (appropriate grind) cam. To hear the blower whine up front, and some cam lope out the back gives me wood.
01-06-2011, 02:54 PM
#68
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01-06-2011, 02:59 PM
#69
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The bottom line here is that both of these power adders are the same!
One is driven by a belt ,,The other is driven by exhaust gases
01-06-2011, 08:02 PM
#70
Thanks for posting the vids...cant deny that the SC sounds awesome. But Im not going after sound alone. Yes they are both power adders but I dont agree that both SC's and turbos are the same or else there wouldnt be a debate. Yes they both produce boost but work off totally different aspects and therefore act differently when doing so. Which also creates their own pros and cons.
01-07-2011, 12:31 PM
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Why the Turbo? We contend that the turbocharger is the superior part with respect to all forced induction mechanisms.
Power
The turbo will always have the power advantage due to the fact that it requires less power from the engine to drive it than any belt driven supercharger. Belt driven superchargers siphon off between 8% and 20% of the crank power, depending on circumstances. The turbo only steals 2% to 3% from the crank, and gets the rest from the wasted heat and flow energy of the exhaust. Why give up 10% if you don’t have to? Would 10% be the difference between winning and losing?
Durability
Two areas establish the turbo as a highly durable mechanism; the trucking industry and the 24 hour Le Mans Endurance Race. Just call truck repair facilities for the first category of information. Le Mans is a different matter. Porsche has publically stated that their engineering department considers street versus race wear rates as 1000 to 1. While perhaps a little high, one needs to assemble really good data to dispute Porsche. Regardless, consider that this race covers 3,500 miles in 24 hours. Porsche says this is equivalent to 3,500,000 street miles and it’s also done without an oil change. The race has been won by a turbocharged car in the majority of events in the last 40 years. Please note that the factory team of Cadillac racers were all turbocharged. So, what does it take for you to have a reliable turbo? Two things: use a top notch synthetic oil and change it every 5000 miles. Either low RPM boost is really not that desirable, or there are lots of centrifugal supercharger users that have been fooling themselves. All other things being equal, the proper turbo makes all of it boost before the centrifugal makes much of its boost. Ask yourself if you would prefer 10psi of intercooled turbo boost at 3000 rpm to redline, or 3psi from the centrifugal supercharger building progressively to redline? It is easy to imagine which is pulling harder at that point. Why is this so? How does the turbo do that, particularly when they share the same style compressor? Easy again; the turbo can speed up relative to the crankshaft, the centrifugal supercharger cannot. You will be truly impressed with the performance of a centrifugal compressor when it is allowed to speed up prior to the engine.
Economy
The turbo enjoys approximately a 10% economy advantage. Reason being; parasitic drag. When the fuel costs eventually get high enough, I’ll wager that every supercharger maker in the world will be frantically designing and tooling up to build a turbo.
Throttle Response
It is common for someone who has never driven a turbocharged car to complain about the lack of throttle response due to turbo lag. While this is a dumb position to get caught in, it is also the wrong information. When the driver of the Turbo 5.0 applies throttle, there is actually a small amount of boost in the system at that instant. With a small amount of boost available to push its way into the manifold, rather than just atmospheric pressure, the driver will notice a small, but perceptible improvement in throttle response. With all of the advances in bearings, compressor and turbine design, housing design and engine management, turbo lag has become a non-issue. Now, to dispel the Myths! “But I can’t stand the lag.” Just answer one basic question. If you are cruising along at 3000 revs and decide to nail the throttle, would you prefer the minimal boost the centrifugal will “instantly” offer, or the 10psi that the turbo will reach in less than one second? If you are cruising at 5000 rpm’s where the CS can actually make some boost, but not yet its maximum, its response is no faster than the turbo. Rest assured that with a turbo, at a cruise of 5000 revs, you can’t get your foot to the floor and off again without the turbo reaching full boost. The CS will respond quickly too, but it won’t reach full boost. That number is reserved for the absolute redline.
“But turbo’s are hard to install!”
The idea that one type of system is simpler to install and therefore better is not sound logic, if the more complex system has offsetting merit. Consider that ten extra hours spent installing a superior system quickly fades from importance if one drives this thing for a couple years and enjoys that difference every day. Struggling without an intercooler and without a proper fuel system for two years makes 10 more hours up front seem like a bargain. And it is a bargain.
The fabled turbo heat problem.
Invariably a supercharger salesman will point to the turbo and flatly state that when it is glowing red hot, it will melt everything under the hood. The problem is knowledge and integrity, not the turbo. Iron and steel begin to glow red at around 1100 F. The stock exhaust gas temperature is well in excess of that, thus the stock exhaust manifold glows when the car is driven hard. No damage is done in the stock condition and none will be done by the turbo.
“The turbo doesn't have any power.”
Although we would like to tout power with quotes of enormous numbers, the power is really going to be what you make of it. Heads, manifolds, cams, exhausts, boost pressures, turbo sizes, all have such a huge influence on power, that naming a specific output is utter folly. However, you may rest assured that whatever preparation path, if any, that you take with the engine, the turbo will provide substantially more power than any other form of forced induction. Flexibility of power improvements unlike any other boost maker, the turbo can be made to change boost at the flip of a switch. Boost can be changed in the middle of a drag race if so desired. Try that trick with anything else. Boost can be made to run as low as 3 psi at full throttle, or well past 30 psi, but the success will always lie with keeping the boost consistent with the engine preparation.
Power
The turbo will always have the power advantage due to the fact that it requires less power from the engine to drive it than any belt driven supercharger. Belt driven superchargers siphon off between 8% and 20% of the crank power, depending on circumstances. The turbo only steals 2% to 3% from the crank, and gets the rest from the wasted heat and flow energy of the exhaust. Why give up 10% if you don’t have to? Would 10% be the difference between winning and losing?
Durability
Two areas establish the turbo as a highly durable mechanism; the trucking industry and the 24 hour Le Mans Endurance Race. Just call truck repair facilities for the first category of information. Le Mans is a different matter. Porsche has publically stated that their engineering department considers street versus race wear rates as 1000 to 1. While perhaps a little high, one needs to assemble really good data to dispute Porsche. Regardless, consider that this race covers 3,500 miles in 24 hours. Porsche says this is equivalent to 3,500,000 street miles and it’s also done without an oil change. The race has been won by a turbocharged car in the majority of events in the last 40 years. Please note that the factory team of Cadillac racers were all turbocharged. So, what does it take for you to have a reliable turbo? Two things: use a top notch synthetic oil and change it every 5000 miles. Either low RPM boost is really not that desirable, or there are lots of centrifugal supercharger users that have been fooling themselves. All other things being equal, the proper turbo makes all of it boost before the centrifugal makes much of its boost. Ask yourself if you would prefer 10psi of intercooled turbo boost at 3000 rpm to redline, or 3psi from the centrifugal supercharger building progressively to redline? It is easy to imagine which is pulling harder at that point. Why is this so? How does the turbo do that, particularly when they share the same style compressor? Easy again; the turbo can speed up relative to the crankshaft, the centrifugal supercharger cannot. You will be truly impressed with the performance of a centrifugal compressor when it is allowed to speed up prior to the engine.
Economy
The turbo enjoys approximately a 10% economy advantage. Reason being; parasitic drag. When the fuel costs eventually get high enough, I’ll wager that every supercharger maker in the world will be frantically designing and tooling up to build a turbo.
Throttle Response
It is common for someone who has never driven a turbocharged car to complain about the lack of throttle response due to turbo lag. While this is a dumb position to get caught in, it is also the wrong information. When the driver of the Turbo 5.0 applies throttle, there is actually a small amount of boost in the system at that instant. With a small amount of boost available to push its way into the manifold, rather than just atmospheric pressure, the driver will notice a small, but perceptible improvement in throttle response. With all of the advances in bearings, compressor and turbine design, housing design and engine management, turbo lag has become a non-issue. Now, to dispel the Myths! “But I can’t stand the lag.” Just answer one basic question. If you are cruising along at 3000 revs and decide to nail the throttle, would you prefer the minimal boost the centrifugal will “instantly” offer, or the 10psi that the turbo will reach in less than one second? If you are cruising at 5000 rpm’s where the CS can actually make some boost, but not yet its maximum, its response is no faster than the turbo. Rest assured that with a turbo, at a cruise of 5000 revs, you can’t get your foot to the floor and off again without the turbo reaching full boost. The CS will respond quickly too, but it won’t reach full boost. That number is reserved for the absolute redline.
“But turbo’s are hard to install!”
The idea that one type of system is simpler to install and therefore better is not sound logic, if the more complex system has offsetting merit. Consider that ten extra hours spent installing a superior system quickly fades from importance if one drives this thing for a couple years and enjoys that difference every day. Struggling without an intercooler and without a proper fuel system for two years makes 10 more hours up front seem like a bargain. And it is a bargain.
The fabled turbo heat problem.
Invariably a supercharger salesman will point to the turbo and flatly state that when it is glowing red hot, it will melt everything under the hood. The problem is knowledge and integrity, not the turbo. Iron and steel begin to glow red at around 1100 F. The stock exhaust gas temperature is well in excess of that, thus the stock exhaust manifold glows when the car is driven hard. No damage is done in the stock condition and none will be done by the turbo.
“The turbo doesn't have any power.”
Although we would like to tout power with quotes of enormous numbers, the power is really going to be what you make of it. Heads, manifolds, cams, exhausts, boost pressures, turbo sizes, all have such a huge influence on power, that naming a specific output is utter folly. However, you may rest assured that whatever preparation path, if any, that you take with the engine, the turbo will provide substantially more power than any other form of forced induction. Flexibility of power improvements unlike any other boost maker, the turbo can be made to change boost at the flip of a switch. Boost can be changed in the middle of a drag race if so desired. Try that trick with anything else. Boost can be made to run as low as 3 psi at full throttle, or well past 30 psi, but the success will always lie with keeping the boost consistent with the engine preparation.
01-07-2011, 01:51 PM
#73
Very well put Bravolistic...you may very well have pushed me over to the turbo side. Thank you for the informational and very well stated post. Im not looking for the coolest sounding car at idle or the loudest blow-off valve; I want reliable consistent power that will crush 95%+ of the cars out there if I want 
01-07-2011, 02:11 PM
#74
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Very well put Bravolistic...you may very well have pushed me over to the turbo side. Thank you for the informational and very well stated post. Im not looking for the coolest sounding car at idle or the loudest blow-off valve; I want reliable consistent power that will crush 95%+ of the cars out there if I want
01-07-2011, 10:30 PM
#78
Flexibility of power improvements unlike any other boost maker, the turbo can be made to change boost at the flip of a switch. Boost can be changed in the middle of a drag race if so desired. Try that trick with anything else.
Can be done with CS too with boost controller and wasetgate. Not denying the fact Turbo > SC for ulitmate power...but CS can also regulate boost.
Can be done with CS too with boost controller and wasetgate. Not denying the fact Turbo > SC for ulitmate power...but CS can also regulate boost.
03-13-2011, 11:23 AM
#79
Here's my thought on why I have decided to go procharger.
A turbo might be more efficient, have all of those benefits, but it's not as easy of a retrofit for those of us who like to turn wrenches but aren't fabricators. I looked at a lot of kits that took the fabrication element out of the equation, but it meant I had to give up a/c, or front sway bar, or something else. I'm not a welder, nor a fabricator, so the idea of having to pay someone else to do all of that was a turnoff to me from a logistical standpoint of having to either drop my car off at a shop or go back and forth. You might shrug that off and dismiss it, but I'm 35 y/o, with a proffesional career, 2 kids under the age of 5, and a list of honey-do items that never ends. I don't have the time or patience to engineer a turbo system.
With a procharger system, I can source all the parts that fit my needs including a better j-bracket (Asters) which eliminates belt slip for realistic boost levels. I get get most all of the parts together and do the install myself in a relatively short manner and never have to leave the house and never have to bust out a welder.
I want a fast, fun, reliable street car, which a D1, with an upgraded fuel system, Aster j-bracket and FMIC will get me to 600 rwhp without any issues or drama. I can retain the a/c, power steering, abs, cruise control, front sway bar, everything that makes a street car a street car.
Is it going to be as fast or put down as much horsepower as someone making the same 8psi from a turbo, probably not, but who cares, not me.
A turbo might be more efficient, have all of those benefits, but it's not as easy of a retrofit for those of us who like to turn wrenches but aren't fabricators. I looked at a lot of kits that took the fabrication element out of the equation, but it meant I had to give up a/c, or front sway bar, or something else. I'm not a welder, nor a fabricator, so the idea of having to pay someone else to do all of that was a turnoff to me from a logistical standpoint of having to either drop my car off at a shop or go back and forth. You might shrug that off and dismiss it, but I'm 35 y/o, with a proffesional career, 2 kids under the age of 5, and a list of honey-do items that never ends. I don't have the time or patience to engineer a turbo system.
With a procharger system, I can source all the parts that fit my needs including a better j-bracket (Asters) which eliminates belt slip for realistic boost levels. I get get most all of the parts together and do the install myself in a relatively short manner and never have to leave the house and never have to bust out a welder.
I want a fast, fun, reliable street car, which a D1, with an upgraded fuel system, Aster j-bracket and FMIC will get me to 600 rwhp without any issues or drama. I can retain the a/c, power steering, abs, cruise control, front sway bar, everything that makes a street car a street car.
Is it going to be as fast or put down as much horsepower as someone making the same 8psi from a turbo, probably not, but who cares, not me.
03-13-2011, 12:06 PM
#80
heres a couple of reasons i went turbo. turbo setups are generally cheaper to do, turbo setup will always make more power at equal boost settings. i went from a roots blower that made 430rwhp(sbc)@9psi to a single 72 mm turbo and made 530rwhp @ 10psi. people say lag is a drawback, if you ask me centifugal superchargers have more lag given the fact that you dont see full boost until peak rpm, turbo chargers give you full boost from when it spools all the way thru to the redline. adjustability, turn the **** for more boost, no pulley changes. i went turbo and i dont think ill ever go any other way!