convince me...SC or Turbo
01-03-2011, 03:52 PM
#41
TECH Resident
That turbo car of his made 800+ at 4500rpms I believe!
To the OP:Im partial to the procharger world because I have one lol. I have never installed a kit before and I did it all myself in the shop. Was really easy and simple as everybody has said in this thread. Wish I had the coin to upgrade to a F1 series blower. Im running a D1SC right now at 16 psi and the car made 780rwhp and it is a blast on the street with a 6 speed. Any route you take will be a good one. Ive been tempted to make my own truck manifold kit with a PT88, but we'll see.
To the OP:Im partial to the procharger world because I have one lol. I have never installed a kit before and I did it all myself in the shop. Was really easy and simple as everybody has said in this thread. Wish I had the coin to upgrade to a F1 series blower. Im running a D1SC right now at 16 psi and the car made 780rwhp and it is a blast on the street with a 6 speed. Any route you take will be a good one. Ive been tempted to make my own truck manifold kit with a PT88, but we'll see.
01-03-2011, 03:59 PM
#42
Haha well reason I ask is because I've been to WTi twice now and seen a black camaro with cme both times and it was cammed and had cme and tinted windows and the flip out stereo.. figured it might be you so I asked.. drove around a lot in 1st and 2nd gear lettiing it whind out lol.. pretty loud car
With the cam that I have in there right now the car bucks at low speeds so I just find it easier to stay in first or second. Just got an EFI Live V2 to start tuning to take care of that and a few other bugs but found the last tuner locked the PCM. So now Im waiting on another PCM so I can start from a stock tune and go from there...
01-04-2011, 10:20 AM
#43
Running 3:73s with a 28" tire. If you get after it you can install it in 1-2 days. I took a little longer because I didnt need my car back because I bought a truck when I blew the motor lol. I have a FMIC, but no meth (wish I had a meth kit for the summer days. My IATs get really hot, prolly around the 120+ area in the summer time. I live in Texas so its a given that it will be HOT!
01-04-2011, 06:29 PM
#44
So in the amount of time this thread has been open and actively engaged/deciding, you could have already installed your procharger setup, had your car tuned, and been beating bmw's and all things rice and other nice cars lol Just though you should know lol
01-04-2011, 07:46 PM
#45
True. Except Id have to wait for the unit, intercooler, piping, t-bolt clamps, couplers, brackets, boost guage, injectors, another fuel pump, meth, and all the other misc **** Id need to ship before I could install and fabricate what I needed...Which alsways seems to take for-ev-eeeeeeeeeer...Then Id do some tuning and end up blowing up my rear or trans and be stuck in BFE. But your probably right, I woulda coulda been done with something 
To tell you the truth the more I think about it the more Im liking the procharger...leaning towards an F-1R if I do go that route. Done the turbo thing, maybe I should give the SC a try
01-04-2011, 07:54 PM
#47
Running 3:73s with a 28" tire. If you get after it you can install it in 1-2 days. I took a little longer because I didnt need my car back because I bought a truck when I blew the motor lol. I have a FMIC, but no meth (wish I had a meth kit for the summer days. My IATs get really hot, prolly around the 120+ area in the summer time. I live in Texas so its a given that it will be HOT!
01-04-2011, 08:19 PM
#48
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If youve already made your choice by now, im sorry for missing it. anyway...
Superchargers are broken into three groups.
centrifugal- these are (IMO) the worst type of supercharger. They use a linear boost system, which means you get more boost as your rpms increase. they are similar to turbos in design but are still belt driven.
Roots- theese use two meshing lobes to compress air and cram in into the engine. the lobes, however are "old technology" but they still grant maximum boost instantly when you put your foot in. may be some clearance issues under the hood.
Twin screw- (my personal favorite sc) almost the same as the roots type but instead of lobes, uses two meshing screws and is much more efficient. still instant boost, still may have clearance issues, and has good boost throughout the rpm range(kind of drops off at the end)
unfortunately s/cs, because they are driven by belts attached to the engine, have a parasitic effect on the engine. because of this, at high boost, a s/c will likely have about an 80hp difference (s/c being lower) from a turbo at the same psi. and superchargers cannot reach boost pressures as high as turbos have the ability to. also may have issues with belt slip at high boost.
Turbos-the issue of lag is mostly eliminated, roots/screw s/cs tend to do better at the lower end. turbos can reach insanely high boots levels(ive heard of some being as high as 72psi.) turbos are more efficient, however depending on what you are looking at doing, long or short runs, i hope this proves helpful. im sure ive missed something but thats what foreums are for!
Superchargers are broken into three groups.
centrifugal- these are (IMO) the worst type of supercharger. They use a linear boost system, which means you get more boost as your rpms increase. they are similar to turbos in design but are still belt driven.
Roots- theese use two meshing lobes to compress air and cram in into the engine. the lobes, however are "old technology" but they still grant maximum boost instantly when you put your foot in. may be some clearance issues under the hood.
Twin screw- (my personal favorite sc) almost the same as the roots type but instead of lobes, uses two meshing screws and is much more efficient. still instant boost, still may have clearance issues, and has good boost throughout the rpm range(kind of drops off at the end)
unfortunately s/cs, because they are driven by belts attached to the engine, have a parasitic effect on the engine. because of this, at high boost, a s/c will likely have about an 80hp difference (s/c being lower) from a turbo at the same psi. and superchargers cannot reach boost pressures as high as turbos have the ability to. also may have issues with belt slip at high boost.
Turbos-the issue of lag is mostly eliminated, roots/screw s/cs tend to do better at the lower end. turbos can reach insanely high boots levels(ive heard of some being as high as 72psi.) turbos are more efficient, however depending on what you are looking at doing, long or short runs, i hope this proves helpful. im sure ive missed something but thats what foreums are for!
01-04-2011, 11:20 PM
#49
If youve already made your choice by now, im sorry for missing it. anyway...
Superchargers are broken into three groups.
centrifugal- these are (IMO) the worst type of supercharger. They use a linear boost system, which means you get more boost as your rpms increase. they are similar to turbos in design but are still belt driven.
Roots- theese use two meshing lobes to compress air and cram in into the engine. the lobes, however are "old technology" but they still grant maximum boost instantly when you put your foot in. may be some clearance issues under the hood.
Twin screw- (my personal favorite sc) almost the same as the roots type but instead of lobes, uses two meshing screws and is much more efficient. still instant boost, still may have clearance issues, and has good boost throughout the rpm range(kind of drops off at the end)
unfortunately s/cs, because they are driven by belts attached to the engine, have a parasitic effect on the engine. because of this, at high boost, a s/c will likely have about an 80hp difference (s/c being lower) from a turbo at the same psi. and superchargers cannot reach boost pressures as high as turbos have the ability to. also may have issues with belt slip at high boost.
Turbos-the issue of lag is mostly eliminated, roots/screw s/cs tend to do better at the lower end. turbos can reach insanely high boots levels(ive heard of some being as high as 72psi.) turbos are more efficient, however depending on what you are looking at doing, long or short runs, i hope this proves helpful. im sure ive missed something but thats what foreums are for!
Superchargers are broken into three groups.
centrifugal- these are (IMO) the worst type of supercharger. They use a linear boost system, which means you get more boost as your rpms increase. they are similar to turbos in design but are still belt driven.
Roots- theese use two meshing lobes to compress air and cram in into the engine. the lobes, however are "old technology" but they still grant maximum boost instantly when you put your foot in. may be some clearance issues under the hood.
Twin screw- (my personal favorite sc) almost the same as the roots type but instead of lobes, uses two meshing screws and is much more efficient. still instant boost, still may have clearance issues, and has good boost throughout the rpm range(kind of drops off at the end)
unfortunately s/cs, because they are driven by belts attached to the engine, have a parasitic effect on the engine. because of this, at high boost, a s/c will likely have about an 80hp difference (s/c being lower) from a turbo at the same psi. and superchargers cannot reach boost pressures as high as turbos have the ability to. also may have issues with belt slip at high boost.
Turbos-the issue of lag is mostly eliminated, roots/screw s/cs tend to do better at the lower end. turbos can reach insanely high boots levels(ive heard of some being as high as 72psi.) turbos are more efficient, however depending on what you are looking at doing, long or short runs, i hope this proves helpful. im sure ive missed something but thats what foreums are for!
Havent seen much on the twin screws for the f-bodies...maybe someone can enlighten me. Only thing I guess I really worry about is the lack of cooling down the IAT's since the air is compressed and forced into the motor right before combustion happens...at least with a centri sc or turbo I can cool down the IATs, reasonably speaking, which will need to happen on 120*+ days here in Yuma, AZ during the summer
01-05-2011, 10:49 AM
#50
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well man i have had a P1 a D1 An S85 and A ST-80. no matter witch way you go your going to have you probs. and there both a pain in the ***. But i can say that i have went thew and fixed both probs with my old sc setups and my turbos sets up..end result when you get them both worked out.....turbo is way more fun to drive.
01-05-2011, 10:56 AM
#51
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if you go the twin screw way, id go with the whipple 3.3, they claim a max of 30 psi, which is more then i'd need on the street lol idk about you tho. plus they just look ba under the hood =)
01-05-2011, 12:14 PM
#52
And on that note, I'd suggest anyone running or planning to run a decent amount of power do yourself a favor and plan on a SD tune from the start. I could have avoided a lot of headaches and money trying to bandaid over the MAF crap!
01-05-2011, 03:12 PM
#54
This is like asking what do you prefer...Coke or Pepsi?
My $0.02...After having one of each (S/C and turbo) I would go turbo.
Can't speak about Centri blowers but I had a factory Roots S/C car (grand prix) that was fully modded to the n-th degree and adding all that time and cash up and I could have had the same power output with the base turbo conversion kit for 2/3rds (or less) the cost and still had the potential for more power and maintain the reliability of a factory delivered car. I hated the belt flap and constant belt slip both which chewed through belts faster than a puppy with a new pair of shoes. Pulley changes were a PITA even with the quick change setup and changing the oil was messy. I required having several belts and a tensioner tool on hand at all times to go with the pulleys 'cuz i might want to change to a new size if i had a batch of bad gasoline and had to downsize due to knock.
Turbo, most of it can be done with a push of a button or twist of a ****. The only thing i can agree with is the others that have posted about chasing boost leaks or cursing cheap fittings when they dribble due to poor manufacturing.
Once the complexity of the exhaust routing and fully wrapping everything to stop melting is taken care of turbo is smooth as silk!
Most people complain about lag. Well, I like it because most of my driving is in the lag so I don't burn fuel anymore than if I had a stock engine. When i want to bang the gears, I rev it into boost and give 'er. I also like the sound of the turbo more than the S/C...however the whipple is a sound I like!
To each their own.
Good luck with whichever solution you choose!
My $0.02...After having one of each (S/C and turbo) I would go turbo.
Can't speak about Centri blowers but I had a factory Roots S/C car (grand prix) that was fully modded to the n-th degree and adding all that time and cash up and I could have had the same power output with the base turbo conversion kit for 2/3rds (or less) the cost and still had the potential for more power and maintain the reliability of a factory delivered car. I hated the belt flap and constant belt slip both which chewed through belts faster than a puppy with a new pair of shoes. Pulley changes were a PITA even with the quick change setup and changing the oil was messy. I required having several belts and a tensioner tool on hand at all times to go with the pulleys 'cuz i might want to change to a new size if i had a batch of bad gasoline and had to downsize due to knock.
Turbo, most of it can be done with a push of a button or twist of a ****. The only thing i can agree with is the others that have posted about chasing boost leaks or cursing cheap fittings when they dribble due to poor manufacturing.
Once the complexity of the exhaust routing and fully wrapping everything to stop melting is taken care of turbo is smooth as silk!
Most people complain about lag. Well, I like it because most of my driving is in the lag so I don't burn fuel anymore than if I had a stock engine. When i want to bang the gears, I rev it into boost and give 'er. I also like the sound of the turbo more than the S/C...however the whipple is a sound I like!
To each their own.
Good luck with whichever solution you choose!
01-05-2011, 03:49 PM
#55
Yes, but my issues are not due to the SC system itself. Its due to the tune. That is gonna happen with any FI system. And although I'm no tuner, I've heard (and it makes sense) that SC cars are easier to tune because the power is linear. I've been searching and saving up to do a 3 bar SD tune and get rid of my MAF. Not to worry though, my car will be SD compliant very soon
And on that note, I'd suggest anyone running or planning to run a decent amount of power do yourself a favor and plan on a SD tune from the start. I could have avoided a lot of headaches and money trying to bandaid over the MAF crap!
And on that note, I'd suggest anyone running or planning to run a decent amount of power do yourself a favor and plan on a SD tune from the start. I could have avoided a lot of headaches and money trying to bandaid over the MAF crap!
01-05-2011, 06:56 PM
#56
Am old guy so played with a lot of this stuff thru the years. Have had rides and driven sts rear mount lt1 cars and been in sts ls1 car. Have driven and had rides in lt1 and ls1 procharged cars one with ps1c and one with d1.Have of course a big hp tt car and play a lot with talon turbo cars ,highly modded ones.
I have even had roots supercharged BBC car in the old days.
My thoughts ,both of course work and work pretty well.Procharger cars are running really fast at local tracks. The way they build boost by rpm likely helps them get traction especially on the street. They seem pretty simple to install and they seem pretty reliable but some do have some belt slip issues and some do order think aftermarket belt tensioner setups to stop this.
Turbos of course have much bigger area under the curve than centrifugal supers. Huge differences as turbos will come into full boost at say 3000rpm and then hold that till redline.You of course have option to ramp in boost by gear,time or rpm with good controller.And variable boost is pretty nice so it helps with traction like the rpm boost on super. Sure supers might not be as effiicient and you might need higher boost for same hp as turbo but really dont' see that big a deal with that part of it. And think most cranks can take the strain but guys do think pin the cranks at higher power don't they?
roots and twin screw types also work pretty good with as said the twin screw types doing better up top. These can beat turbos at really low rpm since they can have boost like off idle which turbos can't ,at least with current tech.
But this super torque off idle can make roots and twin screws really hard to hook up down low.
Turbos can be more involved to install but so what. If my install took a week taking lots of time whats the big deal. After that week its installed and don't much matter. I like the sound of turbos a lot and blow offs. Of course you can have blow offs on supers as well. I like the sound of supers on boost but some at least some older atis seemed to have really awful idle gear rattle.not sure how the newer ones are for this but I hated it. Roots or twin screw usually don't have the rattle. I loved my huge 6.71 blower on my BBC .That was pure Mad Max time ,sounded great,no rattle and wicked power but did lay down on top but hey BBC don't usually need to be revved to the moon to make big power.
And if you really want some fun go with nitrous ,small shots work fine like 50,75,100 and you will get pretty much instant spool up on the turbo even if using a pretty big one.
I have even had roots supercharged BBC car in the old days.
My thoughts ,both of course work and work pretty well.Procharger cars are running really fast at local tracks. The way they build boost by rpm likely helps them get traction especially on the street. They seem pretty simple to install and they seem pretty reliable but some do have some belt slip issues and some do order think aftermarket belt tensioner setups to stop this.
Turbos of course have much bigger area under the curve than centrifugal supers. Huge differences as turbos will come into full boost at say 3000rpm and then hold that till redline.You of course have option to ramp in boost by gear,time or rpm with good controller.And variable boost is pretty nice so it helps with traction like the rpm boost on super. Sure supers might not be as effiicient and you might need higher boost for same hp as turbo but really dont' see that big a deal with that part of it. And think most cranks can take the strain but guys do think pin the cranks at higher power don't they?
roots and twin screw types also work pretty good with as said the twin screw types doing better up top. These can beat turbos at really low rpm since they can have boost like off idle which turbos can't ,at least with current tech.
But this super torque off idle can make roots and twin screws really hard to hook up down low.
Turbos can be more involved to install but so what. If my install took a week taking lots of time whats the big deal. After that week its installed and don't much matter. I like the sound of turbos a lot and blow offs. Of course you can have blow offs on supers as well. I like the sound of supers on boost but some at least some older atis seemed to have really awful idle gear rattle.not sure how the newer ones are for this but I hated it. Roots or twin screw usually don't have the rattle. I loved my huge 6.71 blower on my BBC .That was pure Mad Max time ,sounded great,no rattle and wicked power but did lay down on top but hey BBC don't usually need to be revved to the moon to make big power.
And if you really want some fun go with nitrous ,small shots work fine like 50,75,100 and you will get pretty much instant spool up on the turbo even if using a pretty big one.
01-05-2011, 07:06 PM
#57
the fav car ive ever driven was a centri car. and ive driven dozens and dozens of high powered cars. turbo cars can be turned back too a more civil power level too in most cases. 800rwhp is a handful on the street. trust me. 600rwhp is incredibly fun. centri cars are much more simple to set up and dont have all the heat issues. either ones going to require a big time fuel system. they both sound cool at wot, but a turbo car can be damn near undetectable if you pick the parts right. a big blower ur going to hear and its going to sound like hell opened up to swallow ur children.
01-05-2011, 08:36 PM
#58
Well like I said before Ive owned 3 turbo cars (2 were 500+ rwhp and a 900awhp) but Ive never had an SC car so I really cant compare the two thats the point of this thread for me...I know its like comparing coke to pepsi and everyone is going to have their own opinion. But with that being said I guess I needed to know the pros and cons of both on an F-body. I know will need to get another fuel system...my single pump and 42lb injectors arent going to cut it. Easy fix. Going to go to an SD tune for both...too easy, I'll do my own tuning with EFI Live. I would use meth and a front mount for both. Now heres what I have for pros and cons of turbo vs sc and how to combat or prevent them
Turbo
Pros:
Adjustability "on-the-fly" (planning on electronic boost controller if I go turbo)
Holds boost to up to redline
Stealthier if you want it to be
No parasitic power loss
Cons:
Tight fit for single (Id use a Griffin radiator and stand it up, proven time and time again to work)
Lag (Not really an issue to me but some would argue its a con)
Underhood heat issues (Plan on ceramic coating all the hotside pipes, housing, and manis)
Longer downtime for fabrication and install (Time is time, Id do what I could when I could)
Exhaust leaks effect performance (check system regularly)
Boost leaks (t-bolt clamps and checks)
SC (thinking procharger here)
Pros:
Linear power
Boost is instant, no lag
Easier/quicker install
Cons:
Belt slippage (Seen the Aster bracket, probably would buy one to minimize belt slippage along w/ 8-rib pulley system)
Parasitic power loss (Cant do anything for this one)
Pulley replacement/change to adjust boost
Boost leaks (T-bolt clamps and checks regularly
Anything I missed? Fill me in.
Chris
Turbo
Pros:
Adjustability "on-the-fly" (planning on electronic boost controller if I go turbo)
Holds boost to up to redline
Stealthier if you want it to be
No parasitic power loss
Cons:
Tight fit for single (Id use a Griffin radiator and stand it up, proven time and time again to work)
Lag (Not really an issue to me but some would argue its a con)
Underhood heat issues (Plan on ceramic coating all the hotside pipes, housing, and manis)
Longer downtime for fabrication and install (Time is time, Id do what I could when I could)
Exhaust leaks effect performance (check system regularly)
Boost leaks (t-bolt clamps and checks)
SC (thinking procharger here)
Pros:
Linear power
Boost is instant, no lag
Easier/quicker install
Cons:
Belt slippage (Seen the Aster bracket, probably would buy one to minimize belt slippage along w/ 8-rib pulley system)
Parasitic power loss (Cant do anything for this one)
Pulley replacement/change to adjust boost
Boost leaks (T-bolt clamps and checks regularly
Anything I missed? Fill me in.
Chris
01-05-2011, 08:53 PM
#59
Aster bracket and a d1sc will get you 750-800rwhp and be very easy to maintain. If you have a good bracket setup there is really no maintenance, many have used the same HD 8 rib belt for 30k+ miles. And if it comes apart your engine is not trashed like it is if your turbo bites the dust and throws metal through your engine. I like the headers-x pipe sound better too, most turbo cars sound muffled and garbled to me.
