Injectors in intake pipe...
Injectors in intake pipe... A little run down car is a 370ci cast iron with a y2k80mm on e85. Im running a heads up class that specifies that you have to run an a2a and a2w is outlawed. Has anyone put extra injectors in the intake elbow or pipe to get some atomization to see if its possible to run without an intercooler all together? I know ive seen it done before but i was thinking it was a methanol car. I wonder how many injectors it would take and how much fuel it would take to acually cool the intake charge... We know carb guys can get away with no intercooler just trying to think of ways that an efi car can.
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From: Norn Iron
Why would you want to run no intercooler when you are allowed to do so ?
And carb guys may "get away" with no intercooler, that doesnt mean it's very good. Just the same as running an efi setup with no intercooler would be very inefficient.
And carb guys may "get away" with no intercooler, that doesnt mean it's very good. Just the same as running an efi setup with no intercooler would be very inefficient.
It's not that it's inefficient, it's that it's not heard of in the EFI world to not run an i/c till the explosion of E85. I don't think I've seen but one f-body that runs on alky and that's tom kempf's ODR car, so most f-bodies you will see an intercooler on and i'd say 7/10 are running unleaded gas.
With E85's popularity rising(85%ethanol aka alcohol aka methanol) you can run no i/c and with a carb style intake that has the injectors mounted a little higher in the runners you get almost the same amount of cooling from the added volume of fuel in the combustion cycle almost as good as having the intact charge cooled by an a2a or a2w i/c.
Just different ways of chemically or physically cooling the charge. Obviously the a2a and a2w are physical ways of cooling it with e85 and methanol being chemical ways to cool it. Pick your poison as they both work and work well, with the nod being given to E85 due to more octane and more power potential with race gas qualites at pump gas prices.
With E85's popularity rising(85%ethanol aka alcohol aka methanol) you can run no i/c and with a carb style intake that has the injectors mounted a little higher in the runners you get almost the same amount of cooling from the added volume of fuel in the combustion cycle almost as good as having the intact charge cooled by an a2a or a2w i/c.
Just different ways of chemically or physically cooling the charge. Obviously the a2a and a2w are physical ways of cooling it with e85 and methanol being chemical ways to cool it. Pick your poison as they both work and work well, with the nod being given to E85 due to more octane and more power potential with race gas qualites at pump gas prices.
Actually Ethanol isnt Methanol it doesnt have the cooling properties thats methanol does. The reason for doing it is weight reduction, no pressure drop, faster spool and forward facing turbos. I was hoping someone had tried it and what kind of results they had gotten. I may just make and extra pipe and do some dyno testing.
You can touch the intake on a blow through e85 car after a pass and it be cold.... Theres no doubt in my mind that the intake charge is cold.
Ehhh, they both share the same cooling properties by sheer volume. It takes twice the amount of methanol to make the same amount of power as gasoline, that added volume plays a large part in the amount of leftover fuel after the combustion cycle happens that cools the combusted charge after the explosion has taken place. Having more there will obviously cool more.
I say do it, it's what a 150 pound weight break? And if you put this idea to use on a RS275 type car with a 76mm go with a 4.8 or 5.3 to get even more of a weight break and still make the same power the n2o guys with big c.i. small blocks are making, and run the gauntlet on them
I say do it, it's what a 150 pound weight break? And if you put this idea to use on a RS275 type car with a 76mm go with a 4.8 or 5.3 to get even more of a weight break and still make the same power the n2o guys with big c.i. small blocks are making, and run the gauntlet on them
Yes methanol takes twice as much E85 takes about 30% more. SO thus the less cooling effect. I found a nice chart on the laitent cooling with e85 compaired to methanol ill have to find it.
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I'd be interested in seeing this applied by running a 2nd set of injectors up higher in the airstream. For example on a Proflo intake (I have one, Woody does as well) instead of using one set of larger injectors (in my instance Atomizer 225's, his is Hi Imp 100's) use 2 sets of injectors and use staged injection or even just set them up as a 16 equal injectors depending on what EFI system is used to split up the duty cycle between the 2 sets giving the car the same amount of fuel but using the top 8 injectors not only as fuel.. but since they are up higher in the airstream by something like 6+ inches (on the Proflo) they will be able to help cool the incoming charge more before combustion happens than just relying on the cooling affects right at the intake valve, similar to what happens with a blow through setup. You could do something like two sets of 160's (or whatever size needed) and split the duty cycle with some testing, watching the plugs etc..
I've seen some data on the Bullet where something like this was done with meth and they said it pulled something like 200 degrees of heat out of the incoming airstream from 6-8 inches away.
I've seen some data on the Bullet where something like this was done with meth and they said it pulled something like 200 degrees of heat out of the incoming airstream from 6-8 inches away.
Last edited by Chris81; Sep 18, 2011 at 05:07 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo I'd be interested in seeing this applied by running a 2nd set of injectors up higher in the airstream. For example on a Proflo intake (I have one, Woody does as well) instead of using one set of larger injectors (in my instance Atomizer 225's, his is Hi Imp 100's) use 2 sets of injectors and use staged injection or even just set them up as a 16 equal injectors depending on what EFI system is used to split up the duty cycle between the 2 sets giving the car the same amount of fuel but using the top 8 injectors not only as fuel.. but since they are up higher in the airstream by something like 6+ inches (on the Proflo) they will be able to help cool the incoming charge more before combustion happens than just relying on the cooling affects right at the intake valve, similar to what happens with a blow through setup. You could do something like two sets of 160's (or whatever size needed) and split the duty cycle with some testing, watching the plugs etc..
I've seen some data on the Bullet where something like this was done with meth and they said it pulled something like 200 degrees of heat out of the incoming airstream from 6-8 inches away.
I've seen some data on the Bullet where something like this was done with meth and they said it pulled something like 200 degrees of heat out of the incoming airstream from 6-8 inches away.
Im jumping in on this thread as id love to know more about this kind of stuff. Just recently i was inquiring about the mustang that took the shortblock record, IIRC< he said he had a couple injectors in the intake stream as well. surely you would need some kind of aftermarket ECU like AEM, or Holley or MS or something of the like.
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From: Norn Iron
I also saw that same data. There is a guy on the bullet that races rs275 in my area. He has a notch back trunk car with a 421 c.i. sbc and a 76mm T6 Cast Wheel turbo. He runs consistent 5.50's at 129 and 1.28 60's on this set-up with a blow through carb, no i/c, and E85. He runs his AFR on a gas scale at 10.5:1 and around 22* timing. He is a great example of how much E85 can cool as he has that poor cast wheel 76mm turbo pushed to the max as it wont make more than 16-17 psi and it still keeps his IAT's around 150-160 at the end of a pass with no i/c.
And how is he measuring intake temperatures ? With no IC, he would need to be measuring as close to the intake valve as possible after all liquid has been injected.
Although even there, how does he determine whether the temperature is the intake charge or simply a combination of hot air and the cold liquid on the sensor ?
And the same can be applied to meth injection. A true measure of charge temperature is difficult to obtain.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
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From: australia
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: australia
Ehhh, they both share the same cooling properties by sheer volume. It takes twice the amount of methanol to make the same amount of power as gasoline, that added volume plays a large part in the amount of leftover fuel after the combustion cycle happens that cools the combusted charge after the explosion has taken place. Having more there will obviously cool more.
the whole idea is to burn it when the spark plug is triggered.
left over fuel will give funny readings on plugs and a/f gauge
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
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From: australia
What compression ratio ?
And how is he measuring intake temperatures ? With no IC, he would need to be measuring as close to the intake valve as possible after all liquid has been injected.
Although even there, how does he determine whether the temperature is the intake charge or simply a combination of hot air and the cold liquid on the sensor ?
And the same can be applied to meth injection. A true measure of charge temperature is difficult to obtain.
And how is he measuring intake temperatures ? With no IC, he would need to be measuring as close to the intake valve as possible after all liquid has been injected.
Although even there, how does he determine whether the temperature is the intake charge or simply a combination of hot air and the cold liquid on the sensor ?
And the same can be applied to meth injection. A true measure of charge temperature is difficult to obtain.
good info
at the end of the day, the spark plug tells the story on cyl tmp.
the liquid does vaperize very quickly tho..
if the liquid didn't... the right volume woul;d be going into the motor, BUT the engine wouldn't 'see' the amount of fuel, due to it being in the wrong state ( liquid instead of vapour)
in blown alcohol engines with down nozzels, you can flow up a system, with correct bsfc ( gals/min) , BUT the engine seems lean.
this means, it has correct fuel rate, but wrong fuel form ( liquid instead of vapour)
this factor, is why, i dis like tooo much liquid injected real early on the intake tract. it either never vaporizes , and /or , the liquide gets "pushed" around in the manifold, and not have an even disibrution.
cheers
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: australia
same as fuel flowing in from a carby to the intake plunem
liquid > vapour ( the absorbed energy from the ITA 'boils' the liquid , turns it into a gas..)
BUT, if the fuel is in the wrong state..example
light a match, and throw it in a bucket of gas... the match goes out..
now do it, with vaporized gas... lol ( i'll read about you in the newspaper..)
not enough energy in the match to light the gas..
now u realize why.. race cars need powerfull ignitions.
th fuel vaporizes in the intake, AND also in the compression stroke, before the spark is triggered.
high compression engines, creat enough heat to also vaporize the fuel too.
Last edited by crashly; Sep 19, 2011 at 06:19 AM.
I agree i think the plugs will tell the full story. We have a dyno here i may have to set something up and see what kind of numbers we can come up with comparied to my cheap *** ebay intercooler. 
What compression ratio ?
And how is he measuring intake temperatures ? With no IC, he would need to be measuring as close to the intake valve as possible after all liquid has been injected.
Although even there, how does he determine whether the temperature is the intake charge or simply a combination of hot air and the cold liquid on the sensor ?
And the same can be applied to meth injection. A true measure of charge temperature is difficult to obtain.
And how is he measuring intake temperatures ? With no IC, he would need to be measuring as close to the intake valve as possible after all liquid has been injected.
Although even there, how does he determine whether the temperature is the intake charge or simply a combination of hot air and the cold liquid on the sensor ?
And the same can be applied to meth injection. A true measure of charge temperature is difficult to obtain.
When I say left over fuel, I mean this. We put our cars into a power enrichment mode under load to keep them from detonating. The reason we run them 'richer' is that more fuel will keep the combusted fuels from pre-igniting(aka detonation). Being rich is what saves your *** from melting a piston down. The fuel that isn't totally combusted in the cycle.
I was reading about this when I was researching meth injection and how methanol injection on a gas motor will allow added timing and a leaner a/f ratio than gas alone.
Isn't this what the OP is trying to accomplish? Adding injectors for E85 instead of meth?
I have an idea on how to do this(besides adding injectors) but how much e85 should one spray in a intake to cool. I have something that might work but is their anyway to add injectors to the stock computer?