stevieturbo

co2 may be fine for a drag car, but totally pointless for anything else, unless the bottle lasts forever.

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

that ia why you run on board air, and never have to worry about co2 levels

or leaks. and have air at the track on board for tire pressure changes without bringing a tank or compressor

definately NOT pointless on the street

GrahamHill

iTrader: (6)

The AMS1000's sold in the last couple months have an update where you can move left-right and up-down to plot points on the graph and the box does the figuring.

But yea, before that it's tricky lol!!

skinnies

iTrader: (33)

Yep I have an on board air setup, can get for less than $200 shipped from AMS and includes everything you need. It SAVED me 2 weeks ago when I ran over something with one of my slicks and got a leak, I was able to air the tire back up and make it home.

BAKED

iTrader: (14)

I just picked up an ams1000. I hope it is as good as everyone says...

stevieturbo

So exactly what are the huge benefits running CO2 offer for any car, street, drag or otherwise ?

IMO if you cannot control boost with normal boosted air as the pressure source, something is very badly wrong with your setup.
The only extreme scenario Ive encountered that needs something like that, are WRC cars. But that's because they are forced to run restrictors before the compressor which just messes everything up. So they have to force the turbocharger to do things it normally wouldnt want to do.

Drag cars and certainly not road cars are rarely ever in that situation.

I know guys here in the UK with 8sec street legal 4cyl turbo cars and they have never needed or used CO2 for boost control, and they have no problems.
It's hard to see what benefits it would offer for the majority when normal setups work perfectly.

skinnies

iTrader: (33)

In my case the ability to run a much lower boost, I can run as low as 3lbs and as much as I want(up to 25lbs right now). For when running on street tires(not drag radials) for a heads up series this helps A LOT. It allows me to add pressure on the line, ramp in slow thru the 30ft, quick form 30 to 60 then PULL OUT boost as I hit the bump in the track at ~100ft, then add it back in quickly after that.

Also with footbraking, the co2 can add pressure on top of the gate to allow buliding more boost at lower rpm without the need of a 2 step.

Also with co2 you'll be able to spool faster and change boost levels(ramp rates example with the ams) much quicker. Just about EVERY fast 8.5/275/10.5/etc turbo car in the states has co2.

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

Is is just like Justin states, the street is where the air/co2 is awesome


using just manifold pressure for the controller you cannot run very soft springs and then get high boost out of those springs


with co2/compressed air, for example on the street you could hold down to 2psi for a launch on the street but still ramp it up to 20psi+ as the pull progresses

you can save different configs with the AMS1000, 1 second to change from a track program to one of a couple different other track/street programs you have saved

and about figuring ramp rates, when you view the boost setup you can see in realtime what all the stages and ramps will be doing

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

eb2 can run air/co2 as well if you are so inclined

killernoodle

Has there been any interest in a true electro-mechanical wastegate actuator?

I could see something like a servo controlled wastegate being a pretty elegant solution.

WS6HUMMER

iTrader: (19)

Have a friend that runs nitrous in his, its's cheaper than CO2 to fill,lol

WS6HUMMER

iTrader: (19)

I have a Boost Leash by Sherwood performance, it has most of the features the AMS100 has except for the road race stuff, it's almost half the price too. I love it, easy to use. It's Co2 based as well but the 2.5# bottle lasts a long time since your regulating the pressure way down to 85#

stevieturbo

Yes you can, just use a 4 port solenoid so you can blow the w/g open or closed as desired.

A decent ecu will do pretty much all of the things you guys are saying, in some cases more. I can see that using a high pressure source does offer a slightly wider range of control, and perhaps faster ( although the limits will still be the turbo and engine itself regardless of how fast or slow you move the wastegate)

But I wouldnt be happy ramming the w/g shut to blindly increase or hold boost without also monitoring shaft speed. If there was a problem somewhere, you could easily end up overspinning the turbo without realising it and causing damage.
This could happen with normal boosted air, but is far less likely.

A very good ecu will allow you to control boost based on shaft speed, boost, rpm, load, w/g positon, speed and many other parameters. Ive even seen some guys use a G-sensor so if accel drops below a certain g....it ups the boost, provided the wheels are still maintaining traction.
No external controller will ever allow that level of control without serious integration into the car, which a decent ecu already is.

But as others have stated, any controller can use a high pressure source or CO2 if you wanted.
I assume there are failsafes in place as the CO2 bottle starts to run done ? How will the controller behave ?

The benefits of using CO2 really are minimal, and given the bottle can and will run done, not exactly practical for a street car that gets driven and used often. Unless it will last for hundreds of miles ?

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

Good for you

Ill just keep running air with my 1000, k thanks


What happens when it gets low??? Uhh it doesnt make boost, dangerous i know

dschmittie1

iTrader: (64)

How long does a typical Air of CO2 tank last using a AMS 500. I will be picking one up this weekend and need to get either a CO2 or Air system to control it. Just wanting to know for a Track/weekend warrior car

WS6HUMMER

iTrader: (19)

Costs about as much as the AMS 500 and you get a screen.

stevieturbo

Some modern cars do have electronically actuated w/g. I know some BMW's use this on their diesels. Not sure about petrol's though.
It's easier on a diesel as they run much cooler and so far it's only on variable vane turbos.

I'm sure it is possible, but reliability would be the biggest unknown.

Using conventional air and springs just works so well and easily and is pretty much 100% reliable.

hardbodeez

iTrader: (10)

Stevieturbo, not to break ***** here, but the thread was about electronic boost controllers.

You're talking about integrating a complete standalone ecu which requires major tuning and rewiring. Coupled with the fact you can pick up an AMS-1000 or Eboost2 for $500-$800, and a standalone (or piggyback) ecu will run you well over $1000. You are talking as if a new ecu is plu-n-play and forget it. How about the money the ppl will be spending on a new tune if they don't have the ability or time to do it themselves?

MM ran 8.6s and Rotary1307cc ran 8.80s at round 160mph-ish. So I'm gonna say that either the Eboost2 or the AMS1000 have little to prove in the 'install it and race it within a couple of hours' territory.

Aren't you a blower guy anyway?

stevieturbo

Ive built and tuned a hell of a lot more turbocharged cars in the last 20 years than I have supercharged.

And yes I do use boost control on my blower to reduce power in the lower gears to help with traction.

Boost control isnt limited to turbo engines you know.

And quoting what some cars have achieved is great. Although Ive a friend in the UK who ran 9 flat at 165mph with a 4 cyl Subaru using a bleed valve to control boost. What does it prove ? A $20 bleed valve is best ?
He's now running a flat 6 and using ecu boost control with no CO2 and currently at 8.4 at 170mph
No AMS or CO2 or $1500 boost controllers in sight either ?

I'm not knocking the AMS, and yes I do see your point. But electronic boost control comes in many forms, as does basic mechanical boost control.
Ive certainly never said anything against external controllers, Ive used plenty myself. And yes I agree that if they make installation and racing a quick and easy task then they are great. Which is another reason why I have used them. But they do have limitations, and in order to get the most from them they are not a simple 2 hour install.

But the biggest issue I had cost wise was with Skinnies controller with him saying it cost $1500. Now that is just ridiculous and overpriced hence making the comparison with a full standalone.
Because that is $1500 for just the boost control, nothing else. You've already had to purchase ecu tuning software which has it's limitations because you are buying additional boxes to do different tasks. So the cost of the overall package is well over $1500
So the comparison is valid.

hardbodeez

iTrader: (10)

Ahh man. Why are you getting into this so deeply?

1)Quoting what these 'street driven' cars achieved is important, as these guys do use these cars on the street. So it qualifies their boost controllers as being more than adequate.

2)You say in order to get the most from them, its more than a 2 hour install. Ok. How long is a complete ecu rewire and tune? Does that qualify for more or less than this 2 hour comparable?

3)Yes you completely have a point that Skinnies' controller is ridiculously expensive. I don't deny that. However it does do boost by mph, which is extremely effective on the street (back to cars driven on the street and how they are controlled at the track) as the boost by mph feature will definitely control traction on an auto and even more on a stick car. He ran mid 9s on normal, radial tires. Will your boy with the flat 6 only drop a second by using radial tires? Because really, this is what a good controller means to me.

So lets just say I'm the average guy who actually does all of my own tuning with the turbo already setup on the car, just needing a controller. Do I go out and buy a new ecu, hook it up, log, tune, log, tune (you know the drill) until I get it right? Or do I go spend the money on any of the top boost contollers (proven, have plenty of support from everyone that uses them here) that I can hook up and have running at 80% of their intended effectiveness within little time? Newer ECUs have their place as well, I think that 80% of the people can't be bothered to spend the time with them though, nor do they really need to unless they are pushing the limit.