thehazz12

FI know-it-alls, I NEED SOME HELP! Before you yell at me for not searching, I have already done that, but I still have a few questions and hope to have them all answered in one thread that I can revert to as I proceed with this build.
WARNING:This will be a fairly long read. For that, I apologize. I just want to make sure all of my questions are asked, and I like to be as thorough as possible.

I have an '81 Camaro that I'm building as a road course car. I bought a 5.3 when I first began this project with plans of doing a budget "eBay turbo" build. I've since decided not to cheap out, and would like to go with a roots-style supercharger with a goal of 700-ish whp/tq through a stock t56 trans (I've heard they can hold 700 so that's why I chose that same number as my goal power). I plan on doing that with (insert supercharger), Ed Curtis CNC-ported 243 heads, and a fairly aggressive FI cam also ground by Ed, along with the aforementioned E85 fuel.
When I talked to a Magnuson rep. at the Power Tour, it was recommended I go with their TVS 1900. I said, "Right on! I'll give you a call when it's time to place an order." Days later I was talking to a GTO contact of mine about this build who has a great amount more FI knowledge than I do, and he recommended the same. He's got the 1900 on his 6.0 making 760-ish, and said it would be the most efficient on my small displacement motor. Cool, two parties in agreement...makes my life simple. WRONG! Again, talking to another GTO contact who also has some experience and knowledge of FI, that person recommended the larger 2300. Their reasoning was this: It's virtually the same amount of money, should be just as "efficient", and you have more room to grow should you ever go with a larger displacement motor. This is along the lines of what I was thinking myself. Last weekend I found myself in Mooresville, NC so I stopped in at Heintz Racing. Those guys recommended the same as the last guy agreeing with what he said and adding that meeting my goal power would be much easier with the larger blower. So that's 2 vs. 2 which had me confused and starting to rethink things.
I have also started to look outside of Magnuson. It didn't occur to me that other companies made roots blowers for these motors. I looked at Whipple today and their 2.9L twin-screw looked like a very nice piece.
QUESTON 1: Which blower will best fit my application and help me reach my goals(the answer doesn't necessarily have to be one of the blowers I mentioned)?

I'm wanting to go fairly aggressive with this whole setup. Thus, my 243s will be milled down some for a compression bump. In the reading I've done, I've learned that using E85 with it's different lambda and higher octane that you can run much higher compression in both N/A and FI applications.
QUESTION 2: How much compression can I somewhat-safely run with this setup? I've heard 10.5:1, and I've also heard 11:1.

My next concern is how many lbs. of boost will be required for me to (hopfully) meet my goals. I realize this will depend on what blower I end up with and the tune. Keep in mind I do not have forged internals.
QUESTION 3: Roughly how much boost will be necessary to meet my goal power and is that number safe on a stock internal, iron 5.3?

Lastly, I'm possibly getting another '04 GTO (wrecked) to steal the t56 and interior (for a '66 GTO we're working on) and part out. That means I'll have a 5.7 at my disposal...
QUESTION 4: Would there be a large enough gain or upside with the increased displacement that would justify me using this Ls1? Or should I sell it and put the money towards my supercharger of choice?

I think that's all of the questions I currently have. Thanks for taking the time to read this and for your future advice. I already know that I have to be careful on who I listen to for advice. So, please don't reply with obviously stupid answers. Also, I'm very new to all of this high HP stuff so if I've said something a little ignorant or dumb please forgive me and take it easy on me.

Thanks again,
Brandyn

I8UR4RD

iTrader: (16)

yeah whoever is telling you the 1900 is not doing the research. those things are heat soak machines from what I can tell. its a small blower. the tvs 2300 is a much better piece. depending on your compression which id recommend 9:6-10:1 TO BE SAFE id say 11-12 lbs should get you there. maybe less depending on how she likes the e85. the people at heintz racing will steer you in the right direction 110% of the time. they are constantly dealing with GM blower cars.

thehazz12

So another one for the 2300... Got it.

That's what I like to hear! I wasn't hoping I wouldn't have to go over 12 lbs. and push the internals too hard. BUT...if it blew I could just toss in another $400 junkyard motor. I'd probably look into forging at that point, though, and bumping up the boost a bit.

I figured this much. They're an awesome group of guys over there. I just walked in the door one day with my Gpa and younger brother and they greeted us with tons of hospitality and showed us the shop and a few projects they were currently working on. They had a pretty trick GTO with a 2300 there which is why I brought up my project/questions. I got Zach's and Jeff's business cards and told them I'd be in touch.

Thanks for the help, I8UR4RD. Also, I edited my original posting with a 4th question... Thoughts???

Adam Connell

10-12lbs will not be an issue on E85... with a 2300 on a 5.3 you're going to see more than 10-12lbs pretty easy, or at least I would hope. If you've got a nice H/C package, the 1900 Might* be enough, but the 2300 will get you there for sure. Either blower will produce more power than your butt dyno is expecting... 700rwhp is a flat out stupid amount of power on the street considering if you could make it hook, you'd be in the low 9's high 8's at 135+mph... Just keep in mind what you're really asking for.

Now one of the reasons why the junk yard engines live on turbo builds is the fact that there is no added stress on the crank from a pulley... I have ZERO experience on this subject with LS engines, but I would suspect there will be some extra wear and tear on the crank from the extra down low torque and the pulley on the crank.

You can run more compression, BUT the real question is how comfortable are you with ALWAYS having an E85 source? My DD is an 87 Grand National on E85, but if I take it on a trip, I'll stop at a half tank and top off with 87 and I can continue to drive the car until I find another E85 station. 10 or 11:1 plus boost will become an issue if you run anything other than E85.

Just playing devils advocate here...

thehazz12

Good stuff.

This thing will still weigh 3300-ish plus me in it. 9's...possibly. 8's...I'm doubtful. Plus, suspension will be geared towards making turns...not going in a straight line. It's gonna' have some sort of custom IRS system based off the Explorer 8.8 rear, and as a GTO owner I know all too well how these IRS cars perform at the track.

There is plenty of E85 around here, but I was planning on taking this car on the Power Tour when completed and who knows what gas I will find on a trip like that. You've reminded me of a concern I've had and already forgotten. I have HPT (but don't dare use it, yet) so I'll be able to switch between tunes of 93 and E85. But you're right, in the event of running only 93, the high 11:1 compression may be problematic. I guess I best stick to something closer to 10:1. My GTO contact who recommended the 2300 is running 10.5:1 with an F1 Procharger on 93/meth. His car will be built fairly soon. I'll see how his car likes that before I decide on what I want to do. Mine won't be completed for probably 2 years, anyways, so I'm in no real hurry.

Not a problem. All helpful concerns/opinions are more than welcome. Thank you.

blue00ZZleeper

iTrader: (5)

Nice write up and how you hit your points lol. With E-85 you'll have a little more breathing room on compression however, since its a stock bottom end motor I wouldn't run much more then 10.1:1 or so for longevity sake. I also know that you'll be taxing a 1900 pretty good to make that power. Your much better off going with a 2300, increasing the CFM and lowering the temps. I think its going to take more then 12psi to make your goal though. I would stick with the Iron 5.3 (I'm sure you read quite a few builds) and use the money from the 5.7 sale to cover all the incidentals for the build. The tune will be one of the major points on the build.

stngtamr29

iTrader: (1)

+1+1+1

thehazz12

Duly noted!

Seems everyone agrees on the 2300 vs. 1900 issue... Keep the input coming!

thehazz12

Hey, I saw your car at Heintz the day I was there! Very cool!

I8UR4RD

iTrader: (16)

if you saw stngtamr's car you saw a beast. however, just wanted to say, dont be afraid to push that 5.3. there are plenty of people making 600+ on them and they do surprisingly well. they are tough old birds for sure. you may want to look into getting some better head bolts in it. every 2nd thread on this forum is about a JY 5.3, so theres something to be said there. I know personally of a guy on here taking out a built/sleeved 427 lsx block out of a 5th gen camaro, to drop in a JY 5.3. Why I dont know, but hes doing it. Just tell the guys at Heintz what your goals are, and they will make it happen safely. If you get a decent cam in it like a texas speed 228r or brutespeed blower cam etc etc....it should make it easily. i look forward to your results.

thehazz12

I wish I remembered what Zach said was in it. He said it was fast, though. IIRC, it had a cage, but still had a full interior.

Oh I'm definitely not "afraid", but I would like it to last as least the first season that I start racing it. I know they're incredibly strong for stock internal, small displacement motors which is why I chose this originally. I'm gonna' spend the $300 for the ARP head studs. I've been set on that ever since I decided on boosting...

I won't claim to understand that, but "different strokes for different folks" as they say. For whatever reason, I'm more into the small cube motors and their nature of revving higher as I intend to do with this one. If I had the money, I'd build me a 370.
I'll most likely go with a custom cam. I'm in St. Louis so Heintz won't be doing any of the work on this build, but I will definitely contact them for any advice. Hopefully, I'll be able to compensate them for their help somehow by buying something from them. My Gpa and I will be doing all of the work on this build ourselves as this is more of a "bolt-on" build. That was a factor in my decision to go from turbo to a PD blower.

thehazz12

Got it today. I'd like to hear from a few more people on using the 5.3 vs. this Ls1 before I make any decisions...

thehazz12

TTT

Keep the advice coming, people. All helpful advice and input is welcome!

Thanks to those that have already helped!

thehazz12

I'll go ahead and BUMP this.

Does anybody else have any more input or useful advice? Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

I8UR4RD

iTrader: (16)

just keep in mind that the levels of ethanol in e85 vary. remember that its not available everywhere, so you may want to have a 93 octane tune (or whatevers available to you) ready on a laptop nearby. the reason the 1900 runs hotter, is because to make the power it has to spin faster due to being less efficient via size etc.......which is the reason I just sold my d1sc to upgrade to an f1-a.

for example: my d1sc procharger @ 10lbs netted 600rwhp

AN f1-a however would likely net 680-720 or more at 10lbs and no have to spin nearly as fast to do so meaning its more efficient at making power and also creating less heat.

I'm sure in some way this will also apply to roots styles, etc.....your going to need one hell of a fuel system too!

thehazz12

Yep. Fully aware of that. Apparently, there's a little test on the market now that will actually measure the levels of ethanol in e85. I'm definitely going to look into purchasing one of these.
Depending on where I end up with my compression with this motor, I will certainly have a 93 tune to switch to. If I end up with 11:1 then a 93 tune won't do me much good.

I totally agree. For a bit, I thought about running Whipple's 2.9L as I may add some displacement in the future when this motor blows. But then I saw that the TB on it is in the rear of the blower. I don't like that. And I'm planning to draw my air from where the fogs used to be in that car and I have the freedom to do so with the TVS. The 2.3L will be plenty big for my current and future goals.

thehazz12

So...does this change things?


My Gpa got a call from a friend of his who scored this 6.0 block for a fantastic price of $50. He's been to our shop to see some of our projects and knew of mine so he offered this to us for the same price he paid.
Clearly, this block needs some love. If you all agree with me that this will be better for my application, I will further disassemble it, have it hot-tanked, checked for cracks, sell my 5.3 and 243s, and then begin forging it (once I have the funds). I really like the idea of building/making a small bore motor such as my 5.3 go really fast. However, I'm struggling turning my head to all of the new options the increased bore size of the 6.0 block. I can't help but feel the gravitational pull of the almighty Ls3 head with as much performance as you can get out of them and with as cheap as you can get them.

If you all agree that the switch to the 6.0 is in my best interest, let me know. If you disagree and think I should stick with the 5.3, give me some reasons why. I know I could always get the MAST small-bore Ls3 heads, but those are BIG $$$ and I have to draw the line somewhere.

Thanks as always.
Brandyn

rons 00z

iTrader: (10)

i ran 11:1 on a stock ls1 with cometic gaskets, shaved 317 heads and head studs. other than that i used a tsp 224/244 cam and had a ysi push 15lbs into it. made 600rwhp limiting the timing at 12 degrees and rpm's to 6k. the breaking factor was i cracked the sleeve in the block which then ate a rod bearing.

i'm replicating the same motor except better top end and boring a 5.3 block to 3.902 bore...and i dont plan on holding back boost timing or rpm this go around.

thehazz12

224/244??? That's a pretty BIG split! And 15 lbs. on an aluminum, stock Ls1 is pretty ballsy. That's good an' all, but doesn't help me much or answer any questions of mine.
What fuel did you run on this setup?

I8UR4RD

iTrader: (16)

the car you saw at heintz was running a 370 and an f1-a and some serious compression. his sig is up above ^^

i see you have a 6.0! $50 is a score.

Clean it up, check it for cracks, and call TSP for a rotating assembly. Everyone will have a diff opinion on cubes vs reliability with boost. I like reliability so thicker internals and lower compression are my cup O tea. I just went the way my builder told me to with my 6.0 block.