How much power before e85/meth needed?
12-19-2013, 04:52 PM
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How much power before e85/meth needed? From a week or two of reading and searching it seems that for 700-800 whp on e85 you need a hell of a fuel system to get everything to have enough overhead and will spend a lot of money on pumps that wont die, or simply having enough pump. What are the limits of 93 in FI?
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
12-20-2013, 03:50 PM
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I would also like to know more about this. I will be having a very similar setup (forged 5.3, tc78, looking for 7-800rwhp) on 93 pump. e85 really isn't readily available to me. Plans for meth are in the future but not now.
12-20-2013, 04:44 PM
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e85 is great. but it's for the octane and cooling properties
you can easily make 700 hp with a low compression ls engine with enough boost
just need to watch for detonation.
alchy injection makes it pretty easy
I make 800 at the tire on pump with an ECS (Julio) Alchy control system running pure methanol.
and 600 on low boost
engine is a TTiX LS6 at 8.5 to 1 with AFR heads and a mild turbo cam
600 with 12 psi on 93 octane
800 with 17.5 psi on 93 octane with alcny injection
that being said, I'm going E85 soon as I can run more boost!!
you can easily make 700 hp with a low compression ls engine with enough boost
just need to watch for detonation.
alchy injection makes it pretty easy
I make 800 at the tire on pump with an ECS (Julio) Alchy control system running pure methanol.
and 600 on low boost
engine is a TTiX LS6 at 8.5 to 1 with AFR heads and a mild turbo cam
600 with 12 psi on 93 octane
800 with 17.5 psi on 93 octane with alcny injection
that being said, I'm going E85 soon as I can run more boost!!
12-20-2013, 06:18 PM
#4
From a week or two of reading and searching it seems that for 700-800 whp on e85 you need a hell of a fuel system to get everything to have enough overhead and will spend a lot of money on pumps that wont die, or simply having enough pump. What are the limits of 93 in FI?
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
Read up on some people making actual power and not just running their mouths.
12-20-2013, 06:32 PM
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What about stock ls1 fuel rails? I know I'll need to add a -8 feed and use the stock feed as a return. What kind of duty cycle are #80 injectors going to be at near 800whp? I'll have to check out those walbro pumps, Ive seen the MM writeup on the triple pumps Id just be worried about 3 pumps all lasting without one dying and going lean.
12-20-2013, 06:36 PM
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Are there bunches of high hp turbo cars on 93 pump gas and meth injection? Only 2 stations around here sell e85 and they aren't just right up the road so just trying to not shoot myself in the foot lol
Last edited by 1BadAsZ; 12-20-2013 at 07:55 PM.
12-20-2013, 06:38 PM
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I would verify that everything you buy is E85 compatible, only spend the money once and make sure to buy real fuel pumps and not cheap Chinese knockoffs.
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12-20-2013, 07:00 PM
#8
with 91octane and an intercooler i have consistently ran into knock just above 9psi. you would not think the psi number would be the limiting factor but rather horse power but it sure seems that way. this is on a 4.8, 6.0 and even a 408. they all had between 9 and 9.5/1 compression. even different cams did not seem to change the point at which knock showed up.
now switch that to 93octane and i think you could add at least 1 more psi. lets call it 10psi or 2/3 more power than NA. on a 5.3 with a mild cam you would be looking at around 500rwhp before you needed meth or e85. on a heads and cam 408 its not hard to imagine 700+.
around here 93octane and e85 cost about the same per mile to drive and there are at least a dozen stations in the area. it is crazy to not invest in a fuel system and run that stuff.
now switch that to 93octane and i think you could add at least 1 more psi. lets call it 10psi or 2/3 more power than NA. on a 5.3 with a mild cam you would be looking at around 500rwhp before you needed meth or e85. on a heads and cam 408 its not hard to imagine 700+.
around here 93octane and e85 cost about the same per mile to drive and there are at least a dozen stations in the area. it is crazy to not invest in a fuel system and run that stuff.
12-20-2013, 07:17 PM
#9
The limit of pump gas isn't dictated by horsepower or boost, but how well the heat is kept in check. A 1.6L Honda would see knock at 120 HP with 13:1 and stock cams on 91. A 572 at 7.5:1 compression and a pair of billet 88s would make it above 1500 before it seen knock on pump gas.
There are tons of ways to keep temps low. Low compression, less timing, water or meth injection, bigger intercooler, free-flowing exhaust (less back pressure), larger turbine housings, lower degree thermostat, colder heat range plugs, nitrous, blah blah blah.
There are tons of ways to keep temps low. Low compression, less timing, water or meth injection, bigger intercooler, free-flowing exhaust (less back pressure), larger turbine housings, lower degree thermostat, colder heat range plugs, nitrous, blah blah blah.
12-20-2013, 08:03 PM
#10
What about stock ls1 fuel rails? I know I'll need to add a -8 feed and use the stock feed as a return. What kind of duty cycle are #80 injectors going to be at near 800whp? I'll have to check out those walbro pumps, Ive seen the MM writeup on the triple pumps Id just be worried about 3 pumps all lasting without one dying and going lean.
Injector duty cycle depends on the base pressure. Run 65base and the 80's will be close their limit at 850-900whp.
There are many safe guards you can use. inline pressure switches, LED's etc.
You can also buy one magnaflow 750 tuner pump. It's loud, but it's what I use and it's more than enough pump.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Magnafuel/665/...ductId=1040704
If you plan on pump you need your timing down around 10-12*. Most don't do this and have issues with knock.
12-20-2013, 08:26 PM
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Sorry I meant specifically for E85. All I've read I'm now convinced pump 93 will kill my little 5.3. So even with E85, still run the stock rails and everything? My tuner advised me to do #120 injectors, -8 feed and stock feed for return, and Y the -8 feed into each rail so one side doesnt lose fuel.
I was looking at speed inc rails but I'd rather not have to buy all that if I dont need to. I'd like to do a magnafuel pump like you have, but I have a plastic tank and I'd have to get a metal tank and sump it to feel comfortable running that set up on the street. Would the new AEM e85 pumps be ok if I ran two of them? It's rated at 320lph at 43psi https://sdparts.com/details/aem/50-1200
I was looking at speed inc rails but I'd rather not have to buy all that if I dont need to. I'd like to do a magnafuel pump like you have, but I have a plastic tank and I'd have to get a metal tank and sump it to feel comfortable running that set up on the street. Would the new AEM e85 pumps be ok if I ran two of them? It's rated at 320lph at 43psi https://sdparts.com/details/aem/50-1200
12-20-2013, 09:05 PM
#12
Sorry I meant specifically for E85. All I've read I'm now convinced pump 93 will kill my little 5.3. So even with E85, still run the stock rails and everything? My tuner advised me to do #120 injectors, -8 feed and stock feed for return, and Y the -8 feed into each rail so one side doesnt lose fuel.
I was looking at speed inc rails but I'd rather not have to buy all that if I dont need to. I'd like to do a magnafuel pump like you have, but I have a plastic tank and I'd have to get a metal tank and sump it to feel comfortable running that set up on the street. Would the new AEM e85 pumps be ok if I ran two of them? It's rated at 320lph at 43psi https://sdparts.com/details/aem/50-1200
I was looking at speed inc rails but I'd rather not have to buy all that if I dont need to. I'd like to do a magnafuel pump like you have, but I have a plastic tank and I'd have to get a metal tank and sump it to feel comfortable running that set up on the street. Would the new AEM e85 pumps be ok if I ran two of them? It's rated at 320lph at 43psi https://sdparts.com/details/aem/50-1200
80lb injectors with stock fuel lines and stock fuel rail with a good pump is cheaper and easier than larger injectors, larger fuel lines and a smaller fuel pump. Either will work.
12-21-2013, 07:14 AM
#14
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From a week or two of reading and searching it seems that for 700-800 whp on e85 you need a hell of a fuel system to get everything to have enough overhead and will spend a lot of money on pumps that wont die, or simply having enough pump. What are the limits of 93 in FI?
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
I'm doing a 5.3 with a pt7675, and I want to make about 700whp with room to grow, would running straight 93 be feasible? If not, what is my limit going to be with pump 93? I read that timing will be more sensitive, and since I am running a stock bottom end that makes tuning much more critical. My tuner told me that shooting for 700 on 93 with a 5.3 wouldnt be a good idea due to knock and such causing reliability issues.
Build the engine with those things in mind and pump fuel, and 800 will not pose a problem.
However, if you wish to retain a high CR, maybe also dont have adequate cooling then you are always going to be pushing the limits of detonation resistance at that sort of level.
12-21-2013, 12:43 PM
#15
HexanLord hit the nail on the head IMO.
If you don't want to use E85 (which does has its downfalls), then you are looking at only a few other options.
I am assuming race gas is out, as its just too expensive for most to run as a fuel full time. So then inter cooling does help, but on the scale you are talking you'll still need more. If you drop you CR, you could run safely on just pump gas. But it may be too low for your liking. My personal opinion would keep a somewhat lower CR (in the 8.8:1 - 9:1 range), and then run 93 octane with meth injection. That will keep you safely away from detonation, allow you to achieve your power levels, and still not have to use E85.
If you don't want to use E85 (which does has its downfalls), then you are looking at only a few other options.
I am assuming race gas is out, as its just too expensive for most to run as a fuel full time. So then inter cooling does help, but on the scale you are talking you'll still need more. If you drop you CR, you could run safely on just pump gas. But it may be too low for your liking. My personal opinion would keep a somewhat lower CR (in the 8.8:1 - 9:1 range), and then run 93 octane with meth injection. That will keep you safely away from detonation, allow you to achieve your power levels, and still not have to use E85.
12-21-2013, 01:14 PM
#16
317 heads with an ls9 head gasket put you right at 8.6:1 with a dished piston 5.3. Thats what I ran. Return is on the bottom of the regulator. This setup with a -6 supply from regulator to the rail has made well over 850whp on E85.
I couldn't find a cheap adaptor in -6AN so I ran the -8AN russel adapter.
12-21-2013, 05:20 PM
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You don't need a dash 8 feed. Like I said the OEM hard lines will work. If you are replacing all the lines though you might as well go with -8.
Injector duty cycle depends on the base pressure. Run 65base and the 80's will be close their limit at 850-900whp.
There are many safe guards you can use. inline pressure switches, LED's etc.
You can also buy one magnaflow 750 tuner pump. It's loud, but it's what I use and it's more than enough pump.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Magnafuel/665/...ductId=1040704
If you plan on pump you need your timing down around 10-12*. Most don't do this and have issues with knock.
Injector duty cycle depends on the base pressure. Run 65base and the 80's will be close their limit at 850-900whp.
There are many safe guards you can use. inline pressure switches, LED's etc.
You can also buy one magnaflow 750 tuner pump. It's loud, but it's what I use and it's more than enough pump.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Magnafuel/665/...ductId=1040704
If you plan on pump you need your timing down around 10-12*. Most don't do this and have issues with knock.
12-21-2013, 05:45 PM
#18
Same guy has pushed 800+ on factory 3/8 hardlines on e85 on a couple different cars. Do a search.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...uel-rails.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...jection-2.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...uel-rails.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ps-here-2.html
Last edited by Forcefed86; 12-21-2013 at 09:34 PM.
12-21-2013, 06:02 PM
#19
No. You would need a return style system with rising rate regulator. So if that is what your working with your original idea of using the supply as a return and running -8 line is a good idea. Might as well run the 1/2" line if you have to run a line anyway. You can still use teh returnless style rails. Just plumb the supply and return to a rising rate regulator and run a line from the regulator to the OEM rail. I did this on my setup and it worked great.
317 heads with an ls9 head gasket put you right at 8.6:1 with a dished piston 5.3. Thats what I ran. Return is on the bottom of the regulator. This setup with a -6 supply from regulator to the rail has made well over 850whp on E85.
317 heads with an ls9 head gasket put you right at 8.6:1 with a dished piston 5.3. Thats what I ran. Return is on the bottom of the regulator. This setup with a -6 supply from regulator to the rail has made well over 850whp on E85.
12-21-2013, 09:51 PM
#20
are you saying to start at 68psi, and go boost referenced from there? i made 801 hp with a 58psi base pressure and 17 psi boost would make it 75psi fuel pressure. if i did it your way, i'd make 85psi fuel psi, but more like 90psi running more boost, and running 90psi through stock plastic rails would probably blow apart and cause an underhoodfire.