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He has decent size twins doesn't he? So the outlet temps shouldn't be very high on 6-12psi... least should be a good bit lower then a single on double the boost.Give me a compressor map for an S484 and I'll tell you exactly where we're at on it.
But really the compressor outlet temps were lower then expected and the efficiency of the intercooler core was also lower then expected.What size lines and pump are you running?What is the compressor outlet temp? What size turbo? What size engine? Why are your results so much different from the gentlemen above?
Ok fellas. I apologize for the delay on this. I really wanted to have my ducks in a row, but here we go.
Once again, all testing done using 20lbs of ice in the tank. Pump turned on prior to burnout. Car was cooled down between runs using 3-4 fans in the engine bay so to not have a heat soaked condition. This was at a track rental, so from the pits to the burnout box with no staging lane lines whatsoever.
My first pass of the day was intended as a shakedown. Boost controller turned all the way down. No launch. Average of 15psi boost. I lifted at the 1/8th mile. Outside air temp was around 65*, DA 423'
Starting Pre-cooler: 113*
Ending MAT: (346*) Sensor maxxed at 302* exactly at the 1/8th mile traps. If you look closely at the graph, just prior to the traps the temp climb had begun to taper off. Calculations put the Outlet temp at 346* using the efficiency data calculated in 15psi pass.
Following this pass I pulled over on the return road to check water temp. Lots of ice left in the tank as seen in the vid. Water still ice cold. Doesn't appear to me to be nearly enough heat transfer.
Pass # 3 I turned boost up a bit more once again for a 1/4 mile pass.
73* ambient temp. 948' DA
Boost: 25-26psi. Trap Speed 151.37mph (9.484s)
Starting MAT: 69*
Ending MAT: 188*
Rise: 119*
Starting Pre-cooler temp: 111*
Ending temp: Sensor maxxed out at 302 just prior to 1/8th mile traps on this boost. Calculations not changing any other factors say 377*
This is a 3 pass spread with the data. I have data from 2 more passes in which I turned up to 28-30 psi with similar starting temps, and ended at 200* going through the traps.
At best my calculations put the cooler to be roughly 55% efficient... As far as I can see, this intercooler is suited for a max of 700-750whp on my combo. Beyond that I have had to make the decision not to pull timing until a very high temp, and only able to get away with it due to running E85.
Feel free to discuss. At this point I'm not sure what else could possibly be done to increase the efficiency, but this cooler, on this combo, just simply isn't effective enough and I have no choice but to eat the cost of it and move on to something that can keep temps in check.
Stevie this is about how much ice has been in it after passes when I have checked.
Most times when I check it's not until I go all the way back to the pits, and park, let the car cool down idling for a minute...etc. If the ice was ever fully melted it may have been from that extra run time? I really made it a point to get data as quickly as I could after passes this time to get a real feel for what happens JUST during the run. Make sense?
I understand what you're doing ok, just wasnt sure if this differed from other times when you said it had all melted etc.
Either way, it all boils down to the same thing...it doesnt work as it should.
Clearly it is extracting some heat, just nowhere near enough. The core LSX Power Tuning is using looks like a far better unit...albeit much bigger.
Maybe another option if stuck with a crappy small core......do an "interchiller" style setup ? Although that would require an aircon pump and lines/rad etc. But it would allow you to get that intake core down to very cold temps for a pass.
A lot of weight/complexity and expense vs getting a good water core in there though
Very true. I'll be moving on to a different setup all together. I've done my best to keep my personal feelings on this whole ordeal as it has unfolded. But now, After jumping through all the hoops and making all the changes and spending all the time and $, I was promised by 417 once I got the pre-cooler temps, and temps were not alarming (and I have verified with Jose at Forced Inductions who builds the turbo, as well as other calculations across the board that my pre-cooler temps look totally normal), that he would take back the cooler and water manifolds because he agreed it is not performing how others he claims to have are performing.
Now that this data has been presented, he has reneged and insists it is a problem with my car. Lil John Motorsports' solution to this problem has quite simply been to "sell it to someone else then"... Just keep these things in mind when considering doing business with either of these companies moving forward. If anyone questions my integrity on this, I'd be more than happy to provide screen shots of this dialogue. I have nothing to lose at this point, just a bad *** looking billet paper weight.
Very true. I'll be moving on to a different setup all together. I've done my best to keep my personal feelings on this whole ordeal as it has unfolded. But now, After jumping through all the hoops and making all the changes and spending all the time and $, I was promised by 417 once I got the pre-cooler temps, and temps were not alarming (and I have verified with Jose at Forced Inductions who builds the turbo, as well as other calculations across the board that my pre-cooler temps look totally normal), that he would take back the cooler and water manifolds because he agreed it is not performing how others he claims to have are performing.
Now that this data has been presented, he has reneged and insists it is a problem with my car. Lil John Motorsports' solution to this problem has quite simply been to "sell it to someone else then"... Just keep these things in mind when considering doing business with either of these companies moving forward. If anyone questions my integrity on this, I'd be more than happy to provide screen shots of this dialogue. I have nothing to lose at this point, just a bad *** looking billet paper weight.
Doesn't surprise me in the least. You read LJMS comment earlier "I just sell it"
Doesn't surprise me in the least. You read LJMS comment earlier "I just sell it"
Makes you wonder how much other **** he sells doesn't work as advertised. First he stated that he helped design it, then he said he can't provide any details about it, now he only sells it when it's proven to be a turd.
55% is garbage....you could always have one made out of copper...twice the conductivity as aluminum. Again, great job on the data collection.
But...
Pretty sure that was debunked many years ago, simply because the alloy cores could be made thinner and hence far more efficient than same size copper core.
So whilst copper may be the better metal to use for heat transfer, physically it cannot be made to work as efficiently as the aluminium.
Dumb question, but is it to late to open up a dispute on your credit card? Its easy to show n provide these statements n facts in a dispute. At the bare minimum id prolly try just to force them to have to respond n fight it...this totally sux bro. But its not for nothing! You ve opened up lots of eyes here
I would have respected them much more if he had bought it back from u! Than they could have forever blamed a defective unit or sumthing. Its obvious now, crap product, sold by crap company, with crap customer service! Seeing as they ve sold so many of them, it prolly wouldnt have killed them to buy just 1 back. Simple business practices evade these people. If they arent part of the solution, than they are part of the problem!
This might be a fun idea, but why not mount one of the Chinese codes in series with the 417 core? That should be doable for reasonable amount of cash / work.
This might be a fun idea, but why not mount one of the Chinese codes in series with the 417 core? That should be doable for reasonable amount of cash / work.
You are right would probably work But for the money he spent u shouldn't have too and u are right problem solved but not by the company that sold the the defective item insufficient product . The OP should contact Ron shearer ask him to supply one of his intercooler of the same design for a head to head comparison, the OP has definitely. Made a solid information filled slam dunk case against this inferior product
With the water tank having ice in it, is there a filter or screen on the hose outlet from the tank to the core to keep large chunks of ice from being sucked into the hose where it could restrict flow until it melts?
Very true. I'll be moving on to a different setup all together. I've done my best to keep my personal feelings on this whole ordeal as it has unfolded. But now, After jumping through all the hoops and making all the changes and spending all the time and $, I was promised by 417 once I got the pre-cooler temps, and temps were not alarming (and I have verified with Jose at Forced Inductions who builds the turbo, as well as other calculations across the board that my pre-cooler temps look totally normal), that he would take back the cooler and water manifolds because he agreed it is not performing how others he claims to have are performing.
Now that this data has been presented, he has reneged and insists it is a problem with my car. Lil John Motorsports' solution to this problem has quite simply been to "sell it to someone else then"... Just keep these things in mind when considering doing business with either of these companies moving forward. If anyone questions my integrity on this, I'd be more than happy to provide screen shots of this dialogue. I have nothing to lose at this point, just a bad *** looking billet paper weight.
I get your frustration. Up to this point, you have presented yourself as factual and non emotional. I admire your patience and the lengths you've gone to figure this out.
Had a good look at your results this morning, and I'm still taking it in.
I've got no horse in this race. I couldn't care less what the results mean about anything and I'm not going to jump on a band wagon, for or against you, or the product in question.
It will take some time to put everything together, but the results are not as bad as you've presented. Not to say they're good. Just, not as bad.
If you don't care to see a different presentation/interpretation of the data, please say so and I wont waste my time.
Thumbs up on everything you've done so far... and that beastie car of yours!
I get your frustration. Up to this point, you have presented yourself as factual and non emotional. I admire your patience and the lengths you've gone to figure this out.
Had a good look at your results this morning, and I'm still taking it in.
I've got no horse in this race. I couldn't care less what the results mean about anything and I'm not going to jump on a band wagon, for or against you, or the product in question.
It will take some time to put everything together, but the results are not as bad as you've presented. Not to say they're good. Just, not as bad.
If you don't care to see a different presentation/interpretation of the data, please say so and I wont waste my time.
Thumbs up on everything you've done so far... and that beastie car of yours!
I was just talking about you with a buddy of mine and how you have remained entirely neutral, and that is much appreciated, trust me. I am very curious on your analysis and would appreciate seeing that as well.
This go around of data, with pre-cooler temp has been eye opening to me. I will openly admit that I wasn't quite aware of how hot turbos actually run. That said, I naively purchased a unit that I believed to have overhead above and beyond the capability of my setup attempting to "overbuild" as I always attempt to do. Ends up falling short on mine
03-30-2017, 06:48 AM
