SethU

Great. I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

Some thoughts to ponder in the mean time...

Water flow rate:
To get the highest possible air charge cooling effect, we want the highest water flow rate, of the coolest water, through the intercooler. AND, we want the air to spend as much time in the intercooler as possible. Fast, cold water and slow air will provide the best results.

Some of you are thinking... DUH.

Here's why I bring it up; on the other end of the deal, where the water is cooled by the ice, you want the water to be moving as SLOW as possible. Giving it time to cool as much as possible before it's pumped back out to the intercooler.

So, what's the point of mentioning this? The water going through the intercooler isn't likely to be 32º. And, I'm not sure that we can say what it is. Even if we had a sensor in the "in" water manifold on the IC, it wouldn't read fast enough. Might give an idea though. Maybe it's 35, 40, 45º. Can't say, but we can calc them out and at least take it into account for a broader picture, best case/worst case scenario. With an after run sump temperature reading, we could have drawn an average.


Speaking of sensors... Something I didn't foresee, is how s l o w the sensors react.

In the logs, we see temperature building. That's not temperature building. That's the sensor slowly reacting to a nearly instant temperature change.

Think about that a little and think about your timing strategy. If you set it to pull timing at 250º, the actual temperature could be 400º (or whatever). So, for all of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and most of 4th it's getting full timing. Until the sensor finally reaches 250º.

The temperature, at the end of the run... it's likely not accurate. It's still climbing. Meaning the sensor is still playing catch up. And the actual (even higher) temperature is very near the temperature it is the instant you reach target boost pressure... 1300' behind you.


Assuming 72% compressor efficiency is very generous. I wish we had a map to reference. Maybe we'll use the 88's map as a loose reference.

Note, that in the short 1/8, low boost run, the indicated temperature is still steadily climbing, not showing any signs of nearing the actual peak temperature. So, who's to say what it actually is... In any case, even in that run, 72% compressor efficiency is on the generous side.

Just some food for thought/discussion.

coltboostin

Its laughable ANYONE is questioning this data. Literally, what else do you want the guy to do here? LOL

Ron_Stoppable

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth.... I'm running the 2000hp version with twin ETR HO 80/87s built by Jose with a 427ci. I already have my Intake setup to run a PRE and POST IAT and I'm running Holley EFI aswell, when my build gets up and running I'll come back and post some data. I know off the bat my IATs should be considerably lower than what you were seeing as I "over turbo'd" in a sense. I'm not going to have to push them hard in order to see the power that I want to make

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

At a mimimum I'd leave sponsor feedback since LJMS is a sponsor. I'd also be over on yellow bullet with this data, in the event you haven't already. It's amazing how some bad publicity will wake up a company to respond when it gets enough visibility.

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

Off topic but why are you dropping fuel pressure so badly?

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

Just for reference those vids are from a different time than the pic

The vids are with the cooler in back. It drops an assload of charge temp before it ever gets to the cooler with it in back

I easily saw 300+ pre cooler when the cooler was right up by the turbo, it was melting the sender

gtistile

Running out of fuel pump. The Aeromotive Eliminator is tapped at that power level. Following this pass I went in to the MSD fuel pump controller and bumped the Voltage to 16v as a quick "fix" to get down the track. No more fuel pressure drop with the pump turned up. Good catch!

rotary1307cc

iTrader: (5)

Ah got ya, love the data

gtistile

Thanks man.


And thank god for Holley and massive injectors. I love it. That pressure drop would likely cost you a motor on a stock ECM. At the very least, an aborted pass. In this case, with the Holley, it never even went lean one tiny bit. FTW!!!

stevieturbo

At the same time relying on closed loop in that manner is a danger in itself, as it masks problems.

Closed loop should always have limited amount of control and there should be safeties based on fuel pressure. Whilst the 2 problems can have symptoms that are related they are also unique too and should be treated as such.

gtistile

i may have mis-spoke. I'm still learning the Holley/Tuning as I go on the fly. My buddy has had control of that and I've been soaking it up as quickly as I can. I'm sure he has built in there what you're speaking to. I'll have to run it by him to clarify in my own mind. At this point I know we have the "learn" turned down to 10% or so... I very well may have misinterpreted this 'save' to be the Holleys doing on its own, while in fact he may have that built in to take care of this issue. I think i'm making sense.

regardless the fuel pump needs to be beefier as feeding it higher voltage is just a bandaid and not the solution.

stevieturbo

There is no doubt closed loop control could "save" an engine as you describe....but at the same time it is also masking a very major problem by doing so.

Obviously you're on top of things and have caught this, many would not be. And allowing to run in a manner where closed loop is always saving an engine with huge corrections because someone might not be aware of a problem...is dangerous and foolish. And of course it can only go so far.

First and foremost the engine needs tuned correctly, in which case closed loop trims will always be small. If injectors and other parts of the fuel system have reserve, then closed loop could then save. If someone was running a system near it's limit already, then no amount of closed loop will save it.

Hence both aspects need considered

That could be a monitor on fuel pressure behaviour, or others with the Holley seem to build in warnings via injector duty cycle.

If either deviate from what is known to be normal etc then there must be an issue and it should alert the driver by some means. Likewise by AFR straying too far from what is safe.

oscs

iTrader: (19)

The Holley closed loop control is a blessing and should be utilized as much as possible. Leave the correction factor at 100% in those higher KPA ranges, That's what it's there for. The "patch" or "bandaid" as some are referring to it is exactly why you spent $3500 on an ECU. The trick with the Holley and any other ECU's that makes these changes is to be diligent and review your WOT logs so you can see what it's doing. The safety idea is a good one and most people don't use them. IMO/experience FP/OP/AFR need limits set at WOT. The Holley has bailed me out of more situations than I care to admit.

gtistile

It very well may be. Again. I know enough to be dangerous as they say. That level of it is a bit above my pay grade right now as I don't really dabble in those portions of the tune just yet, he has them set how they need to be 👍

SethU

Don't want to keep you hanging... The computer I have my spreadsheets on took a crap. I have the spreadsheets backed up on a flash drive. I just have to remember where I put it.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi, I have made Freon Tubbed Intercoolers.

Now for you case, you could do the same AND NOT use the A/C pump freon.

That coolant could be CO-2 for the intercooler core coolant.

Would you like more information ?

Lance

stevieturbo

If you're reliant on a lambda sensor to save your engine with bad tuning....lets hope that sensor never fails. That's why not blindly relying on it is important, and monitoring other aspects in case things go strange, and never giving it huge ranges of control. If you're needing 100% corrections something is seriously fucked up and that engine should not be driven until it's sorted. Hell, if it's even needing 20% corrections, something is seriously fucked up and needs addressed immediately.

And people spend money on ecu's to give them better wind wider ranges of control over many control features of the engine/car in general. If all you wanted was closed loop lambda, some aftermarket ecu's have had that for near 20 years and could be done now for a fraction of $3500.

oscs

iTrader: (19)

Lol ok

oscs

iTrader: (19)

I've seen that on a S/C NSX. Such a good idea!

SethU

Alright, got the spreadsheets up and working and starting to dig into the data. I sure wish the temp sensors had a better reaction time and more range.

Were you running an analog pressure gauge in the car? The MAP sensor seems tapped at about 25 psig. Any idea what peak pressures were on the high boost runs?