CarConnection

gtistile I see your on E85, have you bothered to do a fresh set of plugs and pull them after a single pass while messing with IAT reduction settings?

While you've absolutely done your homework on the 417 not holding it's mustard so to speak, all of the IAT reduction strategies you are utilizing assume that the IAT read in the plenum is what the IAT is in the chamber. But given that you run on E85, the heat wicking that is occurring during injection is gonna pull a good bit of that out.

I'm not saying dump all IAT correction or anything like that. But if you look at some of the early day NMRA car's that were required to run non-intercooled centri blower setups, they had IAT's higher than giraffe *** and none of the E85 benefits readily available today.

Could be worth cycling through a few sets of plugs and seeing how far out you can push IAT reduction threshold before you actually do need to pull timing out.

gtistile

Very valid point. To answer your question, I made the decision at my last track day to up the temp that timing gets pulled. Rather than pulling timing at 150* as read by the sensor, I opted to bump it up to 200* before timing was pulled, knowing that the timing table was still on the safe side, but I would pull much more, much quicker at 200*. That enabled me to get roughly to the 1000' mark before any timing was pulled and the car picked up back half MPH like crazy. We pulled a plug following that pass and everything looked happy.

rkupon1

iTrader: (3)

^^^so basically "scaling" the iat readings helped out alot? If so than it does sound like the IC set up is working. Id try n verify actual temps of the ice water b4 and aftr the IC as suggested. See what amount of heat is being transferred. This may be a an apples to oranges comparison, but these intercooler set ups are very similiar to how they are on the ford lightning/cobras. Despite thier wimpy size and restrictive values under an ineffecient supercharger set up, they actually work! Even after throwing a big ole 3.4l whipple furnace atop it! One guy on the lightning forums came up with an after market IC core and did an insane amount of testing. Cliffnotes were, it was all about the FLOW aka dwell time of water thru said IC core. To fast, and no exchange or heat transfer, to slow and heatsoak, etc...jus saying, dont give up, find problem n come out on top smiling. This was an old, but good thread!
http://www.lightningrodder.com/forum...s/27517?page=1

rkupon1

iTrader: (3)

http://www.lightningrodder.com/forum...s/70916?page=1

Again, these mite be smaller i believe in dimension(11.50 (L) x 3.75 (W) x 3.875 (D) - it's 10 rows) than the 417 unit, and under much more heat from ineffecient superchargers

P.s. i had a 700+ rwhp ford lightning, heat was always an issue with the blowers and mod motors. Even the lil factory Eaton (heaton) would wreak havoc with iat s at times

All just an FYI, im no expert on anything, just trying to help out. I ve thought very strongly to switching to this set up so i can ditch the A2A unit up front and replace with a smaller A2W heat exchanger. Than i ll have room to add a rad upfront to run air conditioning!

gsteele

That makes no sense. Even if you meant "too".

SLOW SEDAN

iTrader: (13)

We compared his setup to mine, same size engine, same boost level, same timing, same sensor, same ecm. etc. I also had my sensor in a very similar place tapped into intake. But with mine having a larger cam with more overlap and with an air to air intercooler and my IAT were almost 100 degrees lower. So while I see what your saying in this case it doesn't seem to be the problem. The problem revolves around a $2500 intercooler that doesn't outperform a $300 intercooler.

I'm not sure who 417 uses for their cores but if you compare a 1000 or 1500hp core from Garrett or similar respected brands they are much larger then what 417 rates theirs at. I personally think 417 over rated and under delivered with this product. Look at all the for sale ads for 417 intercoolers, if they worked so well wouldn't everyone be keeping them?

Atomic

iTrader: (37)

Cant add a whole lot but your data seems pretty scientifically gathered so good on you. The one thing I can inquire is if you ever bled the intercooler to make sure there were not any air pockets. If it is the highest point in the system this is a possibility meaning there could be dead spots in the intercooler with no fluid touching them. Probably a stretch but worth a shot.

gtistile

This came up as a possibility at one point. I unbolted the tank and ran the system with the tank at roof level for several minutes to be sure. Good thought!

gtistile

Not sure I understand what you mean? I didn't scale anything, I just decided to pull timing at a much higher temperature than I had previously since the cooler wasn't keeping up. If I pulled timing at a normal temperature the car was back halfing like 23mph due to so much timing being pulled.

Ron_Stoppable

iTrader: (1)

I didn't bother pulling timing on E85 until about 250° Lol

gtistile

That's what I'm starting to learn. Run it a little fatter up top and keep the timing in it till the sensor is maxxed essentially lol

stevieturbo

Anyone saying water is flowing too fast in the system is a problem....completely ignore them.

rkupon1

iTrader: (3)

It was just a thought, but it actually can make sense. There is a such thing as "dwell time". If you push water thru to fast, it mite not have time to exchange heat. Where that point is, i dont know, but did you read the thread i attatched? That guy did quite a bit of IC testing too. It maybe a totaly different set up, but id like to think the same principals apply. Or not, again, it was just a thought.

Id rather keep this positive than have an arguement with you. But there is DEFINATELY a point where this could be a problem. I think what your saying to me is, theres no way we are any where near that point yet. Which your most likely correct. Thats probably a nicer way to get your point across i think. Im defly not a car mechanic, so yea, i ll accept that im wrong by someone with more experiance for sure. I was just trying to help
Im an hvac guy, and some of this stuff applies to real world also. I was simply trying to make sense of it. Like when you design boiler systems, theres many different size circulator pumps for a reason. Most just run the famous old Taco 007. Theres more to it than a one size fits all. Hell, nowadays, there are even variable speed pumps to maximize heat transfer effeciency by regulating demand and flow speeds. Same with an ac system. If you have a 5ton blower behind a 3ton evap coil, chances are the coil wont produce enough cold air bcuz air is whipping thru the evaporator to fast. Or vice versa, 3ton blower with 5ton evap coil, the coil will actually freeze up bcuz not enough air is passing over it. Again, it was all just a thought bcuz i remember those threads that popped up on the IC TESTING from the ol ford lightning days.

ls3fox

it is a good thought about the water flowing threw too fast i ran into a problem on a truck that had a huge trans cooler but the tranny kept getting hot found out it just flowed to much and wasnt cooling the fluid down enough but i dont think it actually applies here because hes using ice water not a heat exchanger

rkupon1

iTrader: (3)

No heat exchanger? I missed that completely. Yea, running Ice and visually seeing real good flow means its defly not air bound either, that IC is prolly frosty. HMMM, I dunno, was just thinkn out loud I guess. It happens. It seems like he figured it out with timing vs. IATs. I'm hoping that 417 IC set up is adequate for a street car with a heat exchanger as I mite possibly be going that route to gain front end space for an AC condenser.

To OP, Thanks for putting the legwork with all the results an actual testing. I can imagine it was frustrating to say the least. Just curious if your gut instincts tell ya this isn't a bad set up and waste of money. Keep posting how you progress with it. Wish we knew the details of the other 449 of em out there,lol.

Chevy406

iTrader: (12)

I know you stated that you are done with collecting data, but consider at least one more test with a temperature sensor upstream of the intercooler and compare it with the temperature reading downstream of the intercooler. Graph your delta T° to see how efficient the intercooler is.

And Stevie is correct - you want as much water flow (velocity and volume) as possible. The residence time of the hot air passing through the exchanger will affect heat transfer (i.e. thicker core is better).

Any chance you have air bypassing the exchanger bricks inside your intake?

gsteele

Not possible.

"Myths

For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.

The myth is stated as either:

Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.

NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance."

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...CoolingSystems

350SS

iTrader: (38)

maybe he's pumping the water so fast that the friction between the water and the tube walls or even just to shear in the liquid is actually heating up the water and transferring that heat to the intercooler and air charge....




jk haha

there is a point where it will go the other way but things have to be going real fast... i.e. idling in traffic vs. cruising at 60mph vs. re-entering earth's atmosphere from orbit

gtistile

I am going to put a pre-cooler MAT sensor in and put this to bed finally. I have my doubts that my S484 is running 150* hotter than anyone elses, but I'll just have to wait and see.

rkupon1

iTrader: (3)

Not saying i dont believe you, bcuz i do. But if a guy like me who is learning, and not trying to spread bad info. What would you do if you read your previous statement, and than one like this:http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=14
Or this one:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31811
And this one:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/archi...p/t-86289.html

Its confusing for someone learning like myself. Im quite sure you guys are correct in saying more flow, volume, etc is always better. I jus like to understand what makes one guy right n one guy wrong if its painfully obvious to some of ya? Just playing devils advocate, not trying to start a war here. Its threads like this and experiances from veteran guys is how i learn. Bcuz theres just so many opinions out there


P.s. i barely ever thought this was truly the issue. Was only a checklist thought at best. But i do think theres a point of to much. It jus may not be evident in these set ups.