what's the secret
SD uses ideal gas law, there is no calibration as long as your sensors are reading temp and pressure correctly. It is also greatly flawed which is why OEM’s don’t strictly use SD anymore. (that I’m aware of).
I haven’t read up enough on the MAF tuning and don’t use it, so I’m no use there. I don’t see how the average DIY hot rodder can verify that the MAF readings are accurate though. Unless you were setup with a ton of expensive test rigs like the OEM’s use I’d think the numbers reported back from the MAF would be a guess. Similar to SD. Then the tuner uses the 02 readings to trim from there. Which is fine and does work… but that doesn’t mean the MAF reading is super accurate representation of the air the engine ingests. Would be cool to know for sure my engine was taking in exactly 90lb/min of airflow VS “X”lb/min fuel flow.
I haven’t read up enough on the MAF tuning and don’t use it, so I’m no use there. I don’t see how the average DIY hot rodder can verify that the MAF readings are accurate though. Unless you were setup with a ton of expensive test rigs like the OEM’s use I’d think the numbers reported back from the MAF would be a guess. Similar to SD. Then the tuner uses the 02 readings to trim from there. Which is fine and does work… but that doesn’t mean the MAF reading is super accurate representation of the air the engine ingests. Would be cool to know for sure my engine was taking in exactly 90lb/min of airflow VS “X”lb/min fuel flow.
Doug is correct. Don't worry, I'm a GM guy. But I tune Mopars.
Dodge tunes are all speed density, drive by wire (torque based).
The later models say 2012 on have a highly sophisticated Nueral Network that governs the whole operation. 2015 on are wideband based.
Dodge tunes are all speed density, drive by wire (torque based).
The later models say 2012 on have a highly sophisticated Nueral Network that governs the whole operation. 2015 on are wideband based.
The MAF tuning assumes you have accurate fuel information, i.e. IFR and pressure, etc. If that is accurate and your commanded fuel doesnt equal your actual fuel, you must* (99.9% of the time) have an error in the MAF transfer function. So typically you take the car out and log actual AFR vs. commanded for each cell in the MAF transfer function table. You end up with a scalar or multiplier that is simply your error in commanded vs. actual and you apply that to each cell. With EFI Live and the histograms they have now you can literally dial in a maf curve on a boosted motor with a 20 minute drive in the car and be within a couple percent.
I will say I can dial in and SD map in about the same time. Most software has a VE map generator to get you in the ball park. You can easily pop off the waste gate and “auto tune” the 100KPA WOT range from there. Once dialed in you can double those VE values per bar of boost on the map and interpolate between the cells. From there I use “auto tune” to trim the rest of the VE table.
At that point you can lock the VE table and rely on a 5-10% closed loop AFR to adjust fueling on the fly and it takes care of 99% of my needs for a cruise and WOT tune on a hot rod. It’s not like you have to hit every cell/load individually on a VE map to tune SD. It’s pretty linear once you have the 100KPA row mapped out.
TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 627
From: Florida
The MAF tuning assumes you have accurate fuel information, i.e. IFR and pressure, etc. If that is accurate and your commanded fuel doesnt equal your actual fuel, you must* (99.9% of the time) have an error in the MAF transfer function. So typically you take the car out and log actual AFR vs. commanded for each cell in the MAF transfer function table. You end up with a scalar or multiplier that is simply your error in commanded vs. actual and you apply that to each cell. With EFI Live and the histograms they have now you can literally dial in a maf curve on a boosted motor with a 20 minute drive in the car and be within a couple percent.
That does sound easy I haven’t worked with either, but would like to!
I will say I can dial in and SD map in about the same time. Most software has a VE map generator to get you in the ball park. You can easily pop off the waste gate and “auto tune” the 100KPA WOT range from there. Once dialed in you can double those VE values per bar of boost on the map and interpolate between the cells. From there I use “auto tune” to trim the rest of the VE table.
At that point you can lock the VE table and rely on a 5-10% closed loop AFR to adjust fueling on the fly and it takes care of 99% of my needs for a cruise and WOT tune on a hot rod. It’s not like you have to hit every cell/load individually on a VE map to tune SD. It’s pretty linear once you have the 100KPA row mapped out.
I will say I can dial in and SD map in about the same time. Most software has a VE map generator to get you in the ball park. You can easily pop off the waste gate and “auto tune” the 100KPA WOT range from there. Once dialed in you can double those VE values per bar of boost on the map and interpolate between the cells. From there I use “auto tune” to trim the rest of the VE table.
At that point you can lock the VE table and rely on a 5-10% closed loop AFR to adjust fueling on the fly and it takes care of 99% of my needs for a cruise and WOT tune on a hot rod. It’s not like you have to hit every cell/load individually on a VE map to tune SD. It’s pretty linear once you have the 100KPA row mapped out.
TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 627
From: Florida
it really isnt that hard for me to get my stuff to within a couple %, i can usually get it really close with a couple logs. Might take a few more if the data isnt great, like a pedaling pull or something like that.
the only way a maf calibration would be faster is if you dont need to visit every part of the map that you tune. is this the case?
it really isnt that hard for me to get my stuff to within a couple %, i can usually get it really close with a couple logs. Might take a few more if the data isnt great, like a pedaling pull or something like that.
it really isnt that hard for me to get my stuff to within a couple %, i can usually get it really close with a couple logs. Might take a few more if the data isnt great, like a pedaling pull or something like that.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 627
From: Florida
yes so its all the same just a different sensor from a tuning standpoint. you still need the data, you still need the right filtering and analysis, you still need to apply it correctly.
it sounds like the biggest reason you think sd is harder is because you dont have as much experience with sd as you do with maf tunes. I havent touched a maf tune in years and it would take me forever to get the tune dialed in as well as im sure you can do it in an afternoon.
it sounds like the biggest reason you think sd is harder is because you dont have as much experience with sd as you do with maf tunes. I havent touched a maf tune in years and it would take me forever to get the tune dialed in as well as im sure you can do it in an afternoon.
yes so its all the same just a different sensor from a tuning standpoint. you still need the data, you still need the right filtering and analysis, you still need to apply it correctly.
it sounds like the biggest reason you think sd is harder is because you dont have as much experience with sd as you do with maf tunes. I havent touched a maf tune in years and it would take me forever to get the tune dialed in as well as im sure you can do it in an afternoon.
it sounds like the biggest reason you think sd is harder is because you dont have as much experience with sd as you do with maf tunes. I havent touched a maf tune in years and it would take me forever to get the tune dialed in as well as im sure you can do it in an afternoon.
I have a NA ls swapped truck and I've been messing with both, running it solely on the OLMAF as Ron suggested. It's really smooth except during certain heavy changes in throttle position...it gets kinda choppy.
with the OLSD it's always nice and smooth
Currently trying to put it back towards stock type operation using the narrowbands/closed loop and it drives like **** even with tiny tiny baby cam. I'm not even sure what to try with it next.
with the OLSD it's always nice and smooth
Currently trying to put it back towards stock type operation using the narrowbands/closed loop and it drives like **** even with tiny tiny baby cam. I'm not even sure what to try with it next.
My C5 runs CL MAF. STFT only.
I actually do tune the MAF below idle. Using the VCM control, slow the idle down a little at a time and you can tune those cells.
Helps on stick shift cars when driving away from stops and the rpm dips below idle.
My Nova runs CLSD. Again only using STFT.
I agree MAF tuning is much easier.
I find VE tuning to be tedious as I prefer to hit as many cells as possible. A little difficult with a high stall converter.
We can hit cells more easily on the dyno, but to get enough hits per cell is hard in the car at high load high rpm.
Things near the exh tend to melt......
I actually do tune the MAF below idle. Using the VCM control, slow the idle down a little at a time and you can tune those cells.
Helps on stick shift cars when driving away from stops and the rpm dips below idle.
My Nova runs CLSD. Again only using STFT.
I agree MAF tuning is much easier.
I find VE tuning to be tedious as I prefer to hit as many cells as possible. A little difficult with a high stall converter.
We can hit cells more easily on the dyno, but to get enough hits per cell is hard in the car at high load high rpm.
Things near the exh tend to melt......
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,012
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For me the heavy investment is the HP Tuners $600 / the laptop needed to use it $1,000 / again the time I don't have and the fuel spent driving around to actually tune the car.
I paid my tuner once $300 and he's a great enough guy he lets me come back and make changes without charging me so the $500 every visit doesn't apply to me luckily.
I've got maybe $2,500 in this setup start to finish over three years so I've gotta stretch my dollars and utilize them effectively and carefully right down to how much insurance and fuel I can use for the summer.
I'm attempting Champagne horsepower on an orange juice budget lmao.
I paid my tuner once $300 and he's a great enough guy he lets me come back and make changes without charging me so the $500 every visit doesn't apply to me luckily.
I've got maybe $2,500 in this setup start to finish over three years so I've gotta stretch my dollars and utilize them effectively and carefully right down to how much insurance and fuel I can use for the summer.
I'm attempting Champagne horsepower on an orange juice budget lmao.
TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 627
From: Florida
The way i think of it, is its all just sensors feeding into the pcm and you adjust the tables to get what you want. as long as your sensors are consistent and you account for different driving conditions it doesnt matter how you do it. Worrying about units or theories isnt important in this scenario.
My wife is a big photography nut so I was thinking I could kill two birds with one stone but I may have to figure out something else for her.
I have decided this is the last change I will make using an outside tuner, I'm going to start looking for used HP Tuners and inexpensive laptops to start handling this in-house.
I know I already asked this question regarding reading material but is there a book you'd recommend Gameova?
Several guys suggested some forums but I spend so much time on a computer everyday a book is really refreshing and what I'd prefer read.
Only mildly realted questions, but some people discussed knock sensors etc - With straight 93 octane I get audible pinging at WOT on my nearly stock transam. I use TORCO to bump the octane up a few points and have no issues afterwards. (Car has been driven 600 miles in 3 years, not a big deal). But aside from the fact that I shouldn't be getting knock in the first place, shouldn't the knock sensors pull back enough timing to kill the knock? I suspect my car has an aggressive and/or shitty tune. I have no codes showing up and it runs great, smooth and like a raped ape when on it - for a stock car anyway.
Right. You can get a decent laptop for a few hundred bucks that will last you years.
Only mildly realted questions, but some people discussed knock sensors etc - With straight 93 octane I get audible pinging at WOT on my nearly stock transam. I use TORCO to bump the octane up a few points and have no issues afterwards. (Car has been driven 600 miles in 3 years, not a big deal). But aside from the fact that I shouldn't be getting knock in the first place, shouldn't the knock sensors pull back enough timing to kill the knock? I suspect my car has an aggressive and/or shitty tune. I have no codes showing up and it runs great, smooth and like a raped ape when on it - for a stock car anyway.
Only mildly realted questions, but some people discussed knock sensors etc - With straight 93 octane I get audible pinging at WOT on my nearly stock transam. I use TORCO to bump the octane up a few points and have no issues afterwards. (Car has been driven 600 miles in 3 years, not a big deal). But aside from the fact that I shouldn't be getting knock in the first place, shouldn't the knock sensors pull back enough timing to kill the knock? I suspect my car has an aggressive and/or shitty tune. I have no codes showing up and it runs great, smooth and like a raped ape when on it - for a stock car anyway.
^^^^^Right - I absolutely do get SUSTAINED audible ping. Which is why I suspect that someone messed with my computer at some point in time before the car was mine. Did a seafoam top end treatment trying to make sure that it wasn't **** built up on my pistons or combustion chambers lighting up prematurely. Car barely blew any smoke. It's a low mile garage queen - has been since new. I'm the third owner and the second owner only had it for a year or so and DEF was not a knowledgeable car guy. Who knows the original owner had done.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
And once again...knock control can only do what it has been told to do...and work correctly if everything has been calibrated correctly for your setup.
And some systems are ****, some are excellent...and many in between.
Likewise with those saying MAF tuning is easy...probably helped because GM has already done most of the work for you and you're just adjusting things
If you were starting with a blank sheet and a completely blank calibration...it would be a lot more work
And some systems are ****, some are excellent...and many in between.
Likewise with those saying MAF tuning is easy...probably helped because GM has already done most of the work for you and you're just adjusting things
If you were starting with a blank sheet and a completely blank calibration...it would be a lot more work
And once again...knock control can only do what it has been told to do...and work correctly if everything has been calibrated correctly for your setup.
And some systems are ****, some are excellent...and many in between.
Likewise with those saying MAF tuning is easy...probably helped because GM has already done most of the work for you and you're just adjusting things
If you were starting with a blank sheet and a completely blank calibration...it would be a lot more work
And some systems are ****, some are excellent...and many in between.
Likewise with those saying MAF tuning is easy...probably helped because GM has already done most of the work for you and you're just adjusting things
If you were starting with a blank sheet and a completely blank calibration...it would be a lot more work