what's the secret
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It seems to me, that cell-for-cell optimization... or if a tune was taken so far as to do cell-for-cell, individual cylinder trimming, fueling and spark and boost curve optimization... that it would be pretty difficult to achieve a full spectrum of quantitative data while track tuning. It's also difficult to imagine that there would be any room for improvement after that sort of tuning.
However, that's not your average tune session either. That's days and days on an engine dyno, touching and retouching every nook and cranny of a tune.
Track tuning may very well offer benefits over (or in addition to) the average chassis dyno tune with the average tuner.
I just can't see there being anything left on the table after, what I would call, a "proper" dyno tune.. And, just because I can't picture something, certainly doesn't make it so.
IMO, Even if you tuned each cylinder individually to its peak performing power level on any dyno, All of those “perfect” settings would no longer be perfect in a real world application.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Perhaps he's blown one (or more) up at that level. He wouldn't be the first well known and respected professional to blame something and not take personal responsibility in the matter. Not in a bad way, per say. Not outward responsibility. The inward kind that we all avoid from time to time. Admitting to ourselves that we don't know something, that we did something bad or wrong or unintentionally wronged someone. It's a horrible feeling and takes massive character to admit, to ourselves. Not everyone has that massive character, all the time. Speaking from personal experience, avoidance of the matter or blaming something other than me is my knee jerk reaction. I have to purposely and intentionally swallow my pride... if/when I swallow my pride.
Sorry to expand on that for so long. I just don't want it to come across as a slam on the guy. He's human. It's more than likely, that he's speaking from personal experience. What might that experience be? What were the conditions of that experience? Was it truly more boost related than tune related?
The evidence is out there, of what many many others, even non professional hobbiests, have achieved safely.
One thing is for sure. He's not likely to blow your **** up. That's a good thing.
Last edited by SethU; Jun 2, 2017 at 08:43 PM.
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
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IMO, Even if you tuned each cylinder individually to its peak performing power level on any dyno, All of those “perfect” settings would no longer be perfect in a real world application.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
IMO, Even if you tuned each cylinder individually to its peak performing power level on any dyno, All of those “perfect” settings would no longer be perfect in a real world application.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 228
Likes: 2
I'm not an expert tuner, just know enough to make small tweaks so not claiming to be tuning god here but just to back up what ForceFed86 is saying, the tune that worked on the dyno for my 900whp car had serious issues at 1/2 mile and needed adjustments to work properly. The loads of going WOT for 18+ seconds and through every gear in a row and then WOT deep into 5th gear, all consecutively, are very different than a 5 second 4th gear pull on loaded dyno. Not to mention the stress on the fuel system, heat in the fuel and oil, heat in the motor, IATs, intercooler flow, belt issues, etc are all very different at the track then on a dyno.
Maybe at 500whp the differences aren't enough to matter or notice, but imo once you get up to 700-800+ hp setups you really can only make them run well and be reliable by using the dyno as a starting point and tweaking it in actual use for what you do with the car. Your typical $400 dyno tune is not going to be sufficient for a 1000hp car in my experience.
Paying $500 for HP tuners and learning to tweak the WOT timing and fuel is fairly easy too. I think the hard part in tuning is getting all the little stuff to work perfectly for daily driving. The WOT stuff is not nearly as hard. With the disclaimer here that again I do not consider myself an expert on tuning by any measure. Just my $0.02
Maybe at 500whp the differences aren't enough to matter or notice, but imo once you get up to 700-800+ hp setups you really can only make them run well and be reliable by using the dyno as a starting point and tweaking it in actual use for what you do with the car. Your typical $400 dyno tune is not going to be sufficient for a 1000hp car in my experience.
Paying $500 for HP tuners and learning to tweak the WOT timing and fuel is fairly easy too. I think the hard part in tuning is getting all the little stuff to work perfectly for daily driving. The WOT stuff is not nearly as hard. With the disclaimer here that again I do not consider myself an expert on tuning by any measure. Just my $0.02
You make really good points about 1/2 of the tuning issue. If you scale the tune to bypass MAF limits, you have to scale a lot of auto trans tables. For a personal vehicle this may just be another interesting part of tuning, but I can imagine this being very time consuming on a professional level. BTW, I have done 2bar tuning with a fully enabled MAF, and I do prefer it if the build allows for using the MAF. Sometimes, however, this just isn't a practical solution.
For the rest of the posts about tuning on a Dyno vs street and track and DIY.....I'll admit I used to go to a well known tuner for years....Everytime I made a major change it was another 2-600 bucks. I finally got tired of it and took the time to learn how to tune and never looked back. Plus I exclusively tune street and track due to exactly what frcefed talks about above....load for that long and shifting and then pulls in high gear add way more load than a Dyno, even load bearing can do.
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Paying $500 for HP tuners and learning to tweak the WOT timing and fuel is fairly easy too. I think the hard part in tuning is getting all the little stuff to work perfectly for daily driving. The WOT stuff is not nearly as hard. With the disclaimer here that again I do not consider myself an expert on tuning by any measure. Just my $0.02
..
Paying $500 for HP tuners and learning to tweak the WOT timing and fuel is fairly easy too. I think the hard part in tuning is getting all the little stuff to work perfectly for daily driving. The WOT stuff is not nearly as hard. With the disclaimer here that again I do not consider myself an expert on tuning by any measure. Just my $0.02
Just another perspective on this. Not to say it's so or not so. Just something to consider.
Perhaps he's blown one (or more) up at that level. He wouldn't be the first well know and respected professional to blame something and not take personal responsibility in the matter. Not in a bad way, per say. Not outward responsibility. The inward kind that we all avoid from time to time. Admitting to ourselves that we don't know something, that we did something bad or wrong or unintentionally wronged someone. It's a horrible feeling and takes massive character to admit, to ourselves. Not everyone has that massive character, all the time. Speaking from personal experience, avoidance of the matter or blaming something other than me is my knee jerk reaction. I have to purposely and intentionally swallow my pride... if/when I swallow my pride.
Sorry to expand on that for so long. I just don't want it to come across as a slam on the guy. He's human. It is more than likely, that he's speaking from personal experience. What might that experience be? What were the conditions of that experience? Was it truly more boost related than tune related?
The evidence is out there, of what many many others, even non professional hobbiests, have achieved safely.
One thing is for sure. He's not likely to blow your **** up. That's a good thing.
Perhaps he's blown one (or more) up at that level. He wouldn't be the first well know and respected professional to blame something and not take personal responsibility in the matter. Not in a bad way, per say. Not outward responsibility. The inward kind that we all avoid from time to time. Admitting to ourselves that we don't know something, that we did something bad or wrong or unintentionally wronged someone. It's a horrible feeling and takes massive character to admit, to ourselves. Not everyone has that massive character, all the time. Speaking from personal experience, avoidance of the matter or blaming something other than me is my knee jerk reaction. I have to purposely and intentionally swallow my pride... if/when I swallow my pride.
Sorry to expand on that for so long. I just don't want it to come across as a slam on the guy. He's human. It is more than likely, that he's speaking from personal experience. What might that experience be? What were the conditions of that experience? Was it truly more boost related than tune related?
The evidence is out there, of what many many others, even non professional hobbiests, have achieved safely.
One thing is for sure. He's not likely to blow your **** up. That's a good thing.
I paid my tuner once $300 and he's a great enough guy he lets me come back and make changes without charging me so the $500 every visit doesn't apply to me luckily.
I've got maybe $2,500 in this setup start to finish over three years so I've gotta stretch my dollars and utilize them effectively and carefully right down to how much insurance and fuel I can use for the summer.
I'm attempting Champagne horsepower on an orange juice budget lmao.
If I may ask, I'd love to start tuning myself and I really do value everyone's opinion who has chimed in on this regardless of which side of the fence you're on so thank you guys.
With that being said are there a particular book you guys would recommend to read that can cover all the basics?
It needs to be a book so I can read it on the *******, its my only alone time lol.
With that being said are there a particular book you guys would recommend to read that can cover all the basics?
It needs to be a book so I can read it on the *******, its my only alone time lol.
That is because you have a 4l60e. Switch to a 6l80e and all the shifts are based off calculated engine torque.
IMO, Even if you tuned each cylinder individually to its peak performing power level on any dyno, All of those “perfect” settings would no longer be perfect in a real world application.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
The real world loads applied to it are vastly different. Take that “perfect dyno tuned engine” and run it in the 1/8, ¼, ½, mile, salt falts etc… and each tune will have to be adjusted drastically to perform optimally. Taking in to account vehicle weights, gearing, aerodynamics, atmosphere, etc… But like you say… no one is spending millions of dollars and man hours on a “perfect dyno tuned engine” anyway. Nothing wrong with using a dyno to get a rough tune. But in my experience you always have to adjust the tune quite once you get to a track.
If I may ask, I'd love to start tuning myself and I really do value everyone's opinion who has chimed in on this regardless of which side of the fence you're on so thank you guys.
With that being said are there a particular book you guys would recommend to read that can cover all the basics?
It needs to be a book so I can read it on the *******, its my only alone time lol.
With that being said are there a particular book you guys would recommend to read that can cover all the basics?
It needs to be a book so I can read it on the *******, its my only alone time lol.
That sounds reasonable, but if you're going through the trouble of scaling all the engine tables, doing it to the trans tables doesn't take that much longer. Considering you can do it sitting on the couch before you ever start actually logging and making changes, it's pretty easy. One hint that ive noticed though is even when scaling the tune, I usually don't scale the idle tables, if I do it doesn't want to hold idle very well. I've heard of a few others with the same experience.
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Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Florida
efilive doesnt require a laptop.
tuning is nice because its the only thing i can do to work on my cars without getting dirty.
and if you think efilive or hpt is tough, try tuning one of these shitbox imports that are community reverse engineered. its insane how complicated it gets, and a lot of it nobody really knows for sure what the tables do.
tuning is nice because its the only thing i can do to work on my cars without getting dirty.
and if you think efilive or hpt is tough, try tuning one of these shitbox imports that are community reverse engineered. its insane how complicated it gets, and a lot of it nobody really knows for sure what the tables do.
I have never been on a dyno, and probably wont anytime soon. What are your thoughts on using fuel pressure, ipw and AFR (basically fuel consumption) as an indicator for peak torque/peak ve?
as for the evo boost taper, it is a limitation of the internal wastegate design that they use and i think those curves are so ingrained in the community that they tend to tune in that curve even when moving to externally gated standalone stuff. or im completely misinterpreting the whole thing. Im a foreigner in the mitsu world.
as for the evo boost taper, it is a limitation of the internal wastegate design that they use and i think those curves are so ingrained in the community that they tend to tune in that curve even when moving to externally gated standalone stuff. or im completely misinterpreting the whole thing. Im a foreigner in the mitsu world.
Originally Posted by mOtOrHeAd MiKe;19636861[COLOR="red"
]Funny how many top "tooners" only write FI tunes in SD - I believe that just goes to prove just how incapable they are.[/COLOR] I am running the same LS7 MAF/4" tube/Saxon PC screen in a blow-through configuration in our Procharged stock long block LS2 TBSS. I am pretty certain most everyone has an opinion on how "wrong" that was. Oh well, it went 11s at 5200+lbs.
The 9/10ths solution is plenty for anyone not seeking to be an internet hero. Everyone likes to feel validated for their achievements, sure - sometimes the greatest validation is always being out in your car, not in the garage fixing it.
To OP's question: Manage your IATs, AFR, and timing wisely - especially at MBT. You must creep up on the number that works best for your combo, not just assume that pulling a tune from the internetz and letting it eat is going to be enough out of the gate. There is no one size fits all solution. DA also has an impact that is a variable that you cannot plan for (hence 9/10ths leave some room for error).
I would also add that reducing the load on the engine (weight of the car, reciprocating mass, etc) is going to ease the strain when pushing the limits of pump gas.
The 9/10ths solution is plenty for anyone not seeking to be an internet hero. Everyone likes to feel validated for their achievements, sure - sometimes the greatest validation is always being out in your car, not in the garage fixing it.
To OP's question: Manage your IATs, AFR, and timing wisely - especially at MBT. You must creep up on the number that works best for your combo, not just assume that pulling a tune from the internetz and letting it eat is going to be enough out of the gate. There is no one size fits all solution. DA also has an impact that is a variable that you cannot plan for (hence 9/10ths leave some room for error).
I would also add that reducing the load on the engine (weight of the car, reciprocating mass, etc) is going to ease the strain when pushing the limits of pump gas.
I'll add to the above post a little food for thought on Centri blower set ups vs. turbos.
Typcially, turbo cars reach their total boost at a much lower rpm than a centri blower. Because of this, really hot centri cars sometimes don't even make a peak torque number. Especially ones that are "ratio'd" in a fashion where boost is climbing all the way to your redline/shift points. My truck is a pretty good example of that. I run an F2 and the few times when I made passes around 26 psi, you just don't see the V/E numbers falling by the shift point.
What I'm getting at hear is that tuning for safety/reliability is completely different from a turbo car to a centri car.
Typcially, turbo cars reach their total boost at a much lower rpm than a centri blower. Because of this, really hot centri cars sometimes don't even make a peak torque number. Especially ones that are "ratio'd" in a fashion where boost is climbing all the way to your redline/shift points. My truck is a pretty good example of that. I run an F2 and the few times when I made passes around 26 psi, you just don't see the V/E numbers falling by the shift point.
What I'm getting at hear is that tuning for safety/reliability is completely different from a turbo car to a centri car.