What made you switch from procharger to turbo?
06-07-2017, 02:23 PM
#81
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Location: Valley Lee, MD. Southern Maryland
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Best post of the thread! Thank you! Instead of getting into a pissing match about how cheap I can build a car I'm being honest about my goals and my abilities. If I wanted to build a car cheap I would of started with a fox body not a low mileage GTO. I want a nice car that is reliable that you don't see a million of at the track. That costs money there is no way around it. I'll talk to some shops and trans builders to see what they recommend for my goals and budget and go from there.
By the time I've made up my mind I have pages of parts with prices and vendors on them and I mark items as purchased after they show up on my doorstep. Other people building the same car for less money, making more power, or going faster doesn't bother me much. When it's all said and done, the only thing that matters is that you are happy or content with the money you spent, the time it took, and the end result.
06-07-2017, 04:11 PM
#83
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
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You're welcome, sounds like you're on the right track. I know how the planning stages of a project are. So many possibilities and opinions available that it can be hard to figure out how you want to spend your money. I find that writing down as much as I can helps me narrow my focus. Also, I like daydreaming about my car build and enjoy hunting down parts and deals so it's nothing for me to sit down and research blowers, turbo kits, reputable tuners, etc for hours before I commit to anything.
By the time I've made up my mind I have pages of parts with prices and vendors on them and I mark items as purchased after they show up on my doorstep. Other people building the same car for less money, making more power, or going faster doesn't bother me much. When it's all said and done, the only thing that matters is that you are happy or content with the money you spent, the time it took, and the end result.
By the time I've made up my mind I have pages of parts with prices and vendors on them and I mark items as purchased after they show up on my doorstep. Other people building the same car for less money, making more power, or going faster doesn't bother me much. When it's all said and done, the only thing that matters is that you are happy or content with the money you spent, the time it took, and the end result.
I do think it's funny that there are stickys here about the real cost of forced induction and all my research says the same thing...it usually costs more than you originally expect. Plus in my past experience with other builds I've always gone over budget. There are always little things that make things work better that no one is mentioning. So when I estimate high to make sure I'm covered I get flamed because everyone else did it cheaper. Most people underestimate how much they actually spent on their car as well.
Why do people build bad *** 427 lsx motors with $4000 heads on them when a boosted junk yard 5.3 can make just as much power? There are reasons of course. Why gap the rings on a 5.3 and not put forged pistons and rods in it while you have it tore apart? Not everyones goals are the same.
06-07-2017, 04:18 PM
#84
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
I could probably afford a budget 408, built trans, built drivetrain, and fuel system this year. I don't see me being able to afford all of that plus the blower this year. So basically it's one or the other blower or built motor this year. If my bonus is extra good maybe I could afford a forged 347 short block and reuse everything else off my current motor then I could go straight to 700 rwhp this winter. I've got to keep some cash in reserves for any unexpected emergencies at home though as well.
06-11-2017, 09:38 AM
#85
A few things to note:
Very interesting. I was running a 10rib setup and had some slipping at 18.5psi. I moved the radiator forward, custom fan setup, and there was still some realllllly tight areas between the crank PC pulley and the fan. A 12 rib wouldn't be possibly unless smaller fans are ran and rearrange them. Being in hotter regions, I couldn't take the chance at running smaller diameter fans.
This. Sell the transmission while it still works. A 4L80E is a relatively easy swap, especially for a GTO that already had a 4L60E. I swapped from a T56 equipped car to a 4L80E that is now controlled with the factory ECU.
Just for the record, I think a PC will meet your power goals, and it would be a good choice as long as you can remain happy at that power level.
I guess the newness hasn't worn off for me yet. I went the other way....used to have a turbo car and now have a D1SC car and i freaking love it. Pull up to a stoplight with the cut out open and the blower whistling is hilarious to me watching people look around trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
Some blower positives for me:
I dont have to worry about whether or not my $400 china turbo is going to explode on any random day and either trying to take out my motor or provide an oil slick for my tires. Budget for a nicer turbo if you want something to make you feel like it's more reliable. There are a ton of turbos out there in the same price range of a PC head unit that will satisfy those needs.
I don't have to deal with a crazy routed hot side kit that may or may not melt stuff in the engine bay unless I spend time/money wrapping everything. I agree here... Heat wrap goes a long way though.
No turbo sitting in front of my accessories/crank pulley so I can actual maneuver around underneath the car. I will say that the front side of my engine bay will be a ton less cramped with a turbo setup vs a procharger.
No oil lines, period. Are oil lines really that big of an obstruction?
Lack of adjustable boost doesn't bother me, but could be easily solved with a wastegated setup, but everyone seems to ignore that. ...until you start running more power. I am running M/T 345s, and there are numerous times I wanted adjustable boost levels.
Hardest thing for me was getting everything aligned. Not sure what you mean here. A lot of companies think they know the offset when they actually don't, hence me designing my only pulley setup and pulling the belt in tighter to the main accessory drive system to clean up some room on the front of the engine.
Some blower positives for me:
I dont have to worry about whether or not my $400 china turbo is going to explode on any random day and either trying to take out my motor or provide an oil slick for my tires. Budget for a nicer turbo if you want something to make you feel like it's more reliable. There are a ton of turbos out there in the same price range of a PC head unit that will satisfy those needs.
I don't have to deal with a crazy routed hot side kit that may or may not melt stuff in the engine bay unless I spend time/money wrapping everything. I agree here... Heat wrap goes a long way though.
No turbo sitting in front of my accessories/crank pulley so I can actual maneuver around underneath the car. I will say that the front side of my engine bay will be a ton less cramped with a turbo setup vs a procharger.
No oil lines, period. Are oil lines really that big of an obstruction?
Lack of adjustable boost doesn't bother me, but could be easily solved with a wastegated setup, but everyone seems to ignore that. ...until you start running more power. I am running M/T 345s, and there are numerous times I wanted adjustable boost levels.
Hardest thing for me was getting everything aligned. Not sure what you mean here. A lot of companies think they know the offset when they actually don't, hence me designing my only pulley setup and pulling the belt in tighter to the main accessory drive system to clean up some room on the front of the engine.
Just for the record, I think a PC will meet your power goals, and it would be a good choice as long as you can remain happy at that power level.
06-11-2017, 10:53 AM
#86
^Your post is loaded with wrong assumptions.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
06-11-2017, 11:06 AM
#87
^Your post is loaded with wrong assumptions.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
06-11-2017, 11:16 AM
#88
No, Slow sedan addressed the wastegated procharge thing earlier, I don't know or care enough about prochargers to know whether what was said is true or not....just wanted to make it known that it was addresed. And a scavenge pump is no big deal, can be installed while killing a six pack.
And the scavenge pump comment is a joke. Everyone knows the preference is to not run 1. How many vendors have we seen on here with kits and one of the highlights is no scavenge pump. Another pump to break/fail/make noise/etc.
06-11-2017, 11:23 AM
#89
^Your post is loaded with wrong assumptions.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
1. There is no way a turbo engine bay is less cluttered than a blower.....there's this crazy thing called a hot side and unless you relocate the battery it always sits in front of the engine/crank on an fbody.
2. Oil lines aren't an obstruction in most cases, but getting the return line right with enough gravity so you don't need a pump is a PITA.
3. Your boost comment is entirely personal preference. I've done 900hp on a turbo 6speed and currently over 700hp on a Blower setup and both times ran 295/50/16 drag radials and never felt the need to control boost.....I see you disregarded the wastegated blower setup just like everybody else.
Yeah, I can see it might be a pain routing the oil lines for those not knowing what they are doing. But so is changing spark plugs for some people.
Well apparently those cars weren't making enough torque. I could easily leave black strips on the interstate from an 80mph punch with these 345s. I even built my own control arms to narrow the track width 5/8" on each side and removed all of the counterproductive negative camber that a GTO is plagued with from lowering the car. Heck, even a stock height GTO runs around -1.7*. Additionally, if you are truly making the boost you stated in those manual setups, I but you have belt shavings from slip UNLESS you are doing some sort of no-lift shift. It's called momentum of masses.
No, I omitted the wastegate comment on a PC because it is a terrible idea... like people who run BOVs ***AFTER*** their IC, granted some people have space constraints and aren't left much of a choice. Why would I spend HP spinning the PC, heating up the air then exhausting it on the cold side, just to dump it out? That, my friend, is over-complicating a design. KISS - Keep it simple, stupid. Everyone that I know that has tried it, hated it. Granted that was only 2 people.
I feel like we are going down a rabbit hole here because we have both had seemingly very different experiences... I have built many GTO platforms, and apparently you have too. We're not going to convince either person of anything different than what we saw with our own eyes.
06-11-2017, 11:24 AM
#90
All weak comments and excuses. Turning up the boost puts more wear on a turbo, does that mean you shouldn't do it?
And the scavenge pump comment is a joke. Everyone knows the preference is to not run 1. How many vendors have we seen on here with kits and one of the highlights is no scavenge pump. Another pump to break/fail/make noise/etc.
And the scavenge pump comment is a joke. Everyone knows the preference is to not run 1. How many vendors have we seen on here with kits and one of the highlights is no scavenge pump. Another pump to break/fail/make noise/etc.
06-11-2017, 11:37 AM
#92
Ok, guess we missed each other....didnt realize you were talking vendor bought kits..... read to fast. Interesting, I would love to see a front mount that retains stock radiator location...A/C.... all while having enough gravity to drain into the pan with no smoke. Not saying it can't be..or hasn't been done. Just can't envision it.
06-11-2017, 11:54 AM
#93
...
I feel like we are going down a rabbit hole here because we have both had seemingly very different experiences... I have built many GTO platforms, and apparently you have too. We're not going to convince either person of anything different than what we saw with our own eyes.
I feel like we are going down a rabbit hole here because we have both had seemingly very different experiences... I have built many GTO platforms, and apparently you have too. We're not going to convince either person of anything different than what we saw with our own eyes.
06-11-2017, 11:57 AM
#94
Ok, guess we missed each other....didnt realize you were talking vendor bought kits..... read to fast. Interesting, I would love to see a front mount that retains stock radiator location...A/C.... all while having enough gravity to drain into the pan with no smoke. Not saying it can't be..or hasn't been done. Just can't envision it.
06-11-2017, 12:06 PM
#95
My guess is you just haven't been around this forum or section long enough. Lots of vendors have been through here over the years with all kinds of kits including log style, under the k keeping the stock k, tubular headers, stock manifolds, etc. Etc. They've all had their pluses and minuses.
06-11-2017, 12:10 PM
#96
Nope....havent seen em. Let me a bit more clear, I'm talking about what I mentioned above....with rear mount exhaust. Yea....looks like I'm just adding on to make a point, but I promise I'm not. But I have very strict guidelines/requirements as to what is a real street car, so if any of those vendor kits had that fender exhaust i wouldn't count it.
06-11-2017, 12:31 PM
#97
I don't know why you would need full exhaust for a street car. MAYBE for a true daily, but 90% of us who build 800 hp cars aren't interested in daily driving them daily.. I keep my car to wear I can jump in and drive anywhere, but I wouldn't enjoy the car near as much if I daily drove it. I drive my dumped exhaust car 7 hours round trip to the track and back though. The turbo makes the exhaust sound better and quieter then an n/a or procharged car...
06-11-2017, 12:40 PM
#98
I don't know why you would need full exhaust for a street car. MAYBE for a true daily, but 90% of us who build 800 hp cars aren't interested in daily driving them daily.. I keep my car to wear I can jump in and drive anywhere, but I wouldn't enjoy the car near as much if I daily drove it. I drive my dumped exhaust car 7 hours round trip to the track and back though. The turbo makes the exhaust sound better and quieter then an n/a or procharged car...
06-11-2017, 01:07 PM
#99
9 Second Club
A few things to note:
Very interesting. I was running a 10rib setup and had some slipping at 18.5psi. I moved the radiator forward, custom fan setup, and there was still some realllllly tight areas between the crank PC pulley and the fan. A 12 rib wouldn't be possibly unless smaller fans are ran and rearrange them. Being in hotter regions, I couldn't take the chance at running smaller diameter fans.
Very interesting. I was running a 10rib setup and had some slipping at 18.5psi. I moved the radiator forward, custom fan setup, and there was still some realllllly tight areas between the crank PC pulley and the fan. A 12 rib wouldn't be possibly unless smaller fans are ran and rearrange them. Being in hotter regions, I couldn't take the chance at running smaller diameter fans.
Marks Workshop has done quite a few down under, various videos on Youtube etc and some pics on their website. I'd imagine the Procharger pulleys end up in a very similar location ( higher end builds here )
https://www.youtube.com/user/samkactus/videos
http://www.marksworkshop.com.au/Page...%20project.htm
The owner of this one has been on here too, although it was some time ago.
http://www.marksworkshop.com.au/Page...%20project.htm
Here is one close to your goals, this would easily be 700+ on a Dynojet. Vortech, not Procharger though
Although again...switching to Gen5 front end parts, would give well developed kits and pull the pulleys all back an inch or so. Win win...aside from the work and cost to change.
Or for turbos, UPP is a US based bit, bit for a long time GenTT offered both single and turbo its in Oz. How well they might work on a LHD vehicle though...dont know.
Likewise AVO Turbo world did kits, and APS.
Off the back of those, one that popped up a year or two ago was Goat Performance again doing lowish mounted twins etc
http://www.goatperformance.com.au/products/#
Another option to consider vs the high front twins, which are messy for access etc
06-11-2017, 01:12 PM
#100
Oh mines just dumped out by the transmission, but I would agree out of the hood is crazy for a street car... Fender exit wouldn't be terrible, but I would be worried about cops that way. I drive my car anywhere comfortably.. If I ever feel like driving it to the store or for a 3 hour road trip I have no worries. Everything is built and the car runs cool and still gets 20+ mpg's..
Me personally I wouldn't have an f-body if I wanted a daily driver though. At the end of the day is my toy that I enjoy cruising in and going fast.. If I wanted a daily I'd buy a second truck.
Me personally I wouldn't have an f-body if I wanted a daily driver though. At the end of the day is my toy that I enjoy cruising in and going fast.. If I wanted a daily I'd buy a second truck.