Going back to Non intercooled
06-28-2004, 11:44 AM
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Going back to Non intercooled Well building the intercooler was a fun and rewarding experience. But and this is a big but, I lost a now confirmed 2 psi at the peak and about 3 psi through out the rpm range after months of testing.
Temp drop was about 40 degrees at peak boost from my prior non intercooled +alky setup. However charge temp drops with an intercooler can make 0, nada, zippo power by itself. You CAN NOT increase the mass of air after it's been compressed. And I know many guys do not understand this so here is a little info- My catch-22 is I can not increase my boost to offset the intercooler psi loss as my G-trim is spinning as fast as it can.
I was only able to run 2 degrees more timing and that's not enough to make up for a 2-3 psi loss. So it seems the intercooler did nothing but result in a loss of power and added weight. I could have just pullied down to 10psi and stuck with the alky system and got the same results.
That's the way it goes sometimes.
Steve
Temp drop was about 40 degrees at peak boost from my prior non intercooled +alky setup. However charge temp drops with an intercooler can make 0, nada, zippo power by itself. You CAN NOT increase the mass of air after it's been compressed. And I know many guys do not understand this so here is a little info-
INTERCOOLERCOOLING,
Kenne Bell was first to test and clarify this industry misconception. Intercoolers DO NOT make more power by cooling the air. That is
physically impossible. Surprised? We don't care what the others say or think or read in books. They are wrong. There is no way that
lowering the charge temperature after the supercharger with an intercooler, a larger intercooler or ice water can increase HP. For actual
third party witnessed tests, see "Miata Madness" in Kenne Bell Tech Tips on our website. Although these tests were run on a Miata,
we've also tested Mustangs, Dodges, and GM applications with the same results. Believe the Kenne Bell tests. Read our tech articles.
Save your money. Lowering the AIR temperature AFTER a supercharger only allows the engine ro run more spark or boost on a
given fuel octane. You can't run an ice cooler on the street for very long. That's not practical. Yes, lowering the air temperature BEFORE
the supercharger will, of course, increase power1%for every 10°.
INTERCOOLERCOOLANT
Never run tap water only in an aluminum intercooler or engine, unless your goal is to make it corrode and leak. Water is the best coolant
known to man. If you choose to use water only, use distilled water. Coolant will not freeze, even at temperatures below 32°. Put ice cubes
in a coolant container and the coolant will read 50°. Touch the probe to an ice cube and it reads 32°. As mentioned before, cooler
intercooler fluid does not increase power. We first learned this in 1986, 17 years ago when testing our Buick Turbocharged GN's. I
personally froze intercoolers with CO2, NOS, NO2, Syltherm, and acetone. In our company's 35 years of existence there aren't many
concepts we haven't tried or tested. One thing is for certain, cooling the air after the supercharger, with no other changes to the engine,
will not and cannot increaseHP.
Kenne Bell was first to test and clarify this industry misconception. Intercoolers DO NOT make more power by cooling the air. That is
physically impossible. Surprised? We don't care what the others say or think or read in books. They are wrong. There is no way that
lowering the charge temperature after the supercharger with an intercooler, a larger intercooler or ice water can increase HP. For actual
third party witnessed tests, see "Miata Madness" in Kenne Bell Tech Tips on our website. Although these tests were run on a Miata,
we've also tested Mustangs, Dodges, and GM applications with the same results. Believe the Kenne Bell tests. Read our tech articles.
Save your money. Lowering the AIR temperature AFTER a supercharger only allows the engine ro run more spark or boost on a
given fuel octane. You can't run an ice cooler on the street for very long. That's not practical. Yes, lowering the air temperature BEFORE
the supercharger will, of course, increase power1%for every 10°.
INTERCOOLERCOOLANT
Never run tap water only in an aluminum intercooler or engine, unless your goal is to make it corrode and leak. Water is the best coolant
known to man. If you choose to use water only, use distilled water. Coolant will not freeze, even at temperatures below 32°. Put ice cubes
in a coolant container and the coolant will read 50°. Touch the probe to an ice cube and it reads 32°. As mentioned before, cooler
intercooler fluid does not increase power. We first learned this in 1986, 17 years ago when testing our Buick Turbocharged GN's. I
personally froze intercoolers with CO2, NOS, NO2, Syltherm, and acetone. In our company's 35 years of existence there aren't many
concepts we haven't tried or tested. One thing is for certain, cooling the air after the supercharger, with no other changes to the engine,
will not and cannot increaseHP.
I was only able to run 2 degrees more timing and that's not enough to make up for a 2-3 psi loss. So it seems the intercooler did nothing but result in a loss of power and added weight. I could have just pullied down to 10psi and stuck with the alky system and got the same results.
That's the way it goes sometimes.
Steve
06-28-2004, 12:06 PM
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I respect Kenne Bell...but it seems to be a screwed up statement.
The quoted states that an intercooler does not make more power by cooling the air after the Supercharger, but then down further it states that it only allows for more boost or spark to be ran...well Hello more spark and more boost is going to equal more POWER. Something is a miss with the text in the statement...are sure it is being quoted right...or did I just miss something very important. Go read Corky Bell's books about intercooling. Lets put it this way you can gain more power with a setup making 10lbs of boost running 23* of timing than you can running 16lbs of boost and 10* of timing. Something is wrong with the information being quoted by Kenne Bell.
The quoted states that an intercooler does not make more power by cooling the air after the Supercharger, but then down further it states that it only allows for more boost or spark to be ran...well Hello more spark and more boost is going to equal more POWER. Something is a miss with the text in the statement...are sure it is being quoted right...or did I just miss something very important. Go read Corky Bell's books about intercooling. Lets put it this way you can gain more power with a setup making 10lbs of boost running 23* of timing than you can running 16lbs of boost and 10* of timing. Something is wrong with the information being quoted by Kenne Bell.
06-28-2004, 12:29 PM
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Shinobi'sZ, we/they are talking about the direct effect of charge temperature reduction on power from an intercooler.
Not the indirect effect of being able to add more boost or timing with an intercooler to add power.
The fact is if you drop your charge temp with an intercooler say 50 degrees and change nothing else like the timing, you gain nothing from the temperature reduction alone since it was cooled after the blower/turbo.
This differs on a NA setup that would gain about 5% power from the temp reduction alone.
Nobody is saying an intercooler is not beneficial. But in some cases like mine, it is a waste of time if I am going to use race gas anyways.
Not the indirect effect of being able to add more boost or timing with an intercooler to add power.
The fact is if you drop your charge temp with an intercooler say 50 degrees and change nothing else like the timing, you gain nothing from the temperature reduction alone since it was cooled after the blower/turbo.
This differs on a NA setup that would gain about 5% power from the temp reduction alone.
Nobody is saying an intercooler is not beneficial. But in some cases like mine, it is a waste of time if I am going to use race gas anyways.
06-28-2004, 12:38 PM
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one pull in my car was 670rw. nothing else touched, packed intercooler with ice and got 712rwhp. i'm not good at math but it FEELS better 
whats the difference between 100+40-60 and 100-60+40?Today 05:09 PM
whats the difference between 100+40-60 and 100-60+40?Today 05:09 PM
this is because your turbo keeps boost constant! Charge Temp reduction drops boost.. But at the same time your turbo is able to keep boost level constant.Doing so with a lower charge temp means you get more mass flow into the motor. So this results in more power for you.
My g-trims output is set and maxed. I can't bring my boost back up from the charge temp reduction or restriction.
Wish I could but I can't.
06-28-2004, 01:09 PM
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Sounds Like You Need To Upgrade To A T Trim If You're Able To Run The Same Boost But Add More Timing And Fuel I Think That Would Yield More Power In The Long Run.
Someone Will Buy That Head Unit Off Ya And You Can Use That To Offset The Costs Of A New One.
Sorry For The Caps
Got Me Som
Someone Will Buy That Head Unit Off Ya And You Can Use That To Offset The Costs Of A New One.
Sorry For The Caps
Got Me Som
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06-28-2004, 01:26 PM
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Sounds Like You Need To Upgrade To A T Trim If You're Able To Run The Same Boost But Add More Timing And Fuel I Think That Would Yield More Power In The Long Run.
Someone Will Buy That Head Unit Off Ya And You Can Use That To Offset The Costs Of A New One.
Someone Will Buy That Head Unit Off Ya And You Can Use That To Offset The Costs Of A New One.
I know I can get 14psi out of this thing with no intercooler in cool weather vs 11-12 with the intercooler.
It's odd but the intercooler seems to have hurt midrange boost more so than top end boost. A solid 3 psi loss at 4500rpm but only about 1.5 psi loss at 6400rpm.
For now I will just run about 106 octane and 18-20 degrees timing. It ran pretty well on pump gas and alky at 14psi peak boost and 20 degrees timing with no intercooler. But I hate to go back to alky systems again.
06-28-2004, 02:38 PM
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Ryan, no dyno numbers. Just a bunch of logged runs using efilive and boost gage readings. The intercooler showed slightly slower acceleration numbers using efilive time stamps. I have about 50 logs between the intercooler and no intercooler so the time stamp method is valid and there is a trend showing the results to be clear. There is no question the car was a tad quicker without the intercooler. My maxed G-trim likes 0 restrictions better. Have to remember I'm not running 15+psi. Maxed out at 70K impeller speeds at only 14psi peak make adding any restrictions not worthwhile. It's not like my non intercooled IAT is that high.
I'll sell the pump and ac condenser. Make me an offer. Pump is brand new. Want a pic of the condenser first?
I'll sell the pump and ac condenser. Make me an offer. Pump is brand new. Want a pic of the condenser first?
06-28-2004, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by S_J_H
Shinobi'sZ, we/they are talking about the direct effect of charge temperature reduction on power from an intercooler.
Not the indirect effect of being able to add more boost or timing with an intercooler to add power.
The fact is if you drop your charge temp with an intercooler say 50 degrees and change nothing else like the timing, you gain nothing from the temperature reduction alone since it was cooled after the blower/turbo.
This differs on a NA setup that would gain about 5% power from the temp reduction alone.
Nobody is saying an intercooler is not beneficial. But in some cases like mine, it is a waste of time if I am going to use race gas anyways.
Not the indirect effect of being able to add more boost or timing with an intercooler to add power.
The fact is if you drop your charge temp with an intercooler say 50 degrees and change nothing else like the timing, you gain nothing from the temperature reduction alone since it was cooled after the blower/turbo.
This differs on a NA setup that would gain about 5% power from the temp reduction alone.
Nobody is saying an intercooler is not beneficial. But in some cases like mine, it is a waste of time if I am going to use race gas anyways.
Gotcha...
However I have problems believing that cooler IATs would not be more desirable even if it means not getting KR, all of our cars will run better in 70* weather than in 106* weather..at least I think they do.
I know that when Andy did back to back test on the C5 with the ATI between the stock ATI Twin IC and his Single FMIC...at an independant dyno, that more timing could be added to same amount of boost with the single fmic..which seems to be inline with what is being said.
Why aren't you benefitting form running both an IC and water/alky???????
06-28-2004, 05:21 PM
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Just curious, do you have any maf #'s before and after the intercooler?
Gotcha...
However I have problems believing that cooler IATs would not be more desirable even if it means not getting KR, all of our cars will run better in 70* weather than in 106* weather..at least I think they do.
I know that when Andy did back to back test on the C5 with the ATI between the stock ATI Twin IC and his Single FMIC...at an independant dyno, that more timing could be added to same amount of boost with the single fmic..which seems to be inline with what is being said.
Why aren't you benefitting form running both an IC and water/alky???????
However I have problems believing that cooler IATs would not be more desirable even if it means not getting KR, all of our cars will run better in 70* weather than in 106* weather..at least I think they do.
I know that when Andy did back to back test on the C5 with the ATI between the stock ATI Twin IC and his Single FMIC...at an independant dyno, that more timing could be added to same amount of boost with the single fmic..which seems to be inline with what is being said.
Why aren't you benefitting form running both an IC and water/alky???????
Let's say I go to the track on a 100 degree day with my intercooler. I put ice in my cooler and run oh let's say 130 peak IAT.
Now I go to the track on a 45' day with no intercooler( blower speed the same) and run the same 130peak IAT. Well even though charge temp is the same, the 45' day non intercooled combo is moving a lot more mass flow into the motor from the denser air entering into the blower.
For a better explanation go to this link and click on Miata madness where they go into intercooler temps and power-
http://www.kennebell.net/media/media-home.htm
I built the intercooler as I was tired of the alky system and the alky did not lower my iat enough to run pump gas and a lot of timing. About 20 degrees timing was the max with 15GPH methanol and 93 pump gas.
With the intercooler I could run 22 degrees timing up to a 150 IAT on 100 octane. About 150 degree charge temp it begins to detonate on 100 octane.
I was at 22 degrees timing. I don't think adding alky and running even more timing would make up for a 2-3 psi loss.
I want MAX power from this G-trim. Not near max output, I want MAX! And that means as much flow out of it as possible. For this little blower which really can't make big boost numbers and superheat the air on a ls1 no matter what you do, running it without an intercooler with a very free inlet and good direct piping to T.B. with RACE GAS is going to give absolute power from the G-trim.
So dumping the intercooler probably means 170' charge temps but with 2-3 more psi . Using enough octane to run the same 22 degrees means about 40RWHP increase.
Steve
06-28-2004, 05:48 PM
#14
I understand what you are saying!! Yaaayyyy...I am usually lost when y'all get technical. A turbo car can make up the boost loss that you are experiencing. If you had a more efficient intercooler, wouldn't you only have say a .5psi drop and be able to make more power? I know you don't have one but this is just me trying to understand more.
06-28-2004, 06:11 PM
#16
i know.. the fat hint i was laying was get a turbo.
i agree with jerry a 3psi drop is relatively bad for an intercooler.. but sounds like you are 'cool' with it and arent interested in buying in on a larger/more efficient one.
the hard part is figuring out if the drop in pressure is the result of cooling or the result of restriction. i'm not doing that math but i have the books. pv=nrt
i agree with jerry a 3psi drop is relatively bad for an intercooler.. but sounds like you are 'cool' with it and arent interested in buying in on a larger/more efficient one.
the hard part is figuring out if the drop in pressure is the result of cooling or the result of restriction. i'm not doing that math but i have the books. pv=nrt
06-28-2004, 07:32 PM
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If you had a more efficient intercooler, wouldn't you only have say a .5psi drop and be able to make more power? I know you don't have one but this is just me trying to understand more.
know.. the fat hint i was laying was get a turbo.
i agree with jerry a 3psi drop is relatively bad for an intercooler.. but sounds like you are 'cool' with it and arent interested in buying in on a larger/more efficient one.
the hard part is figuring out if the drop in pressure is the result of cooling or the result of restriction. i'm not doing that math but i have the books. pv=nrt
i agree with jerry a 3psi drop is relatively bad for an intercooler.. but sounds like you are 'cool' with it and arent interested in buying in on a larger/more efficient one.
the hard part is figuring out if the drop in pressure is the result of cooling or the result of restriction. i'm not doing that math but i have the books. pv=nrt
It's hard to say how a bigger or better intercooler would do with this G-trim.
It's such a little blower and is sensitive to restrictions both before and after the blower.
As far as I know I am the only guy who ever ran the 2.5" pulley with no intercooler on a G-trim. Boost is pretty good hitting about 14psi on my motor at 6400rpm. Had I never experienced the boost with no intercooler with this unit I would probably been quite happy with 11psi with the intercooler.
I'm not willing to lay out any cash for another intercooler as I really think no matter how good it is, the G-trims output is going to drop off with it.
I used to run up to 18psi non intercooled in my 5.0. It's not that big a problem. Lot's of renegade guys running 8's without an intercooler. Just needs a hell of a good tune and darn good gas.
Steve
06-29-2004, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
Go read Corky Bell's books about intercooling. Lets put it this way you can gain more power with a setup making 10lbs of boost running 23* of timing than you can running 16lbs of boost and 10* of timing. Something is wrong with the information being quoted by Kenne Bell.
" it must be a properly integrated system, PROPERLY means turning the supercharger faster or adjusting the size to account for the lost boost, and correcting the air/fuel ratio."
Therefor this experience is predictable and consistent with what Corky and Kenne are telling us.
