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Hi guys, I suppose I should just go ahead and do twin 450 fuel pumps but currently I have a single 535 walbro setup. The car has 80lb Siemens injectors and is topping out around 550whp on e85. Would going to 120lb get it to 700whp capable on the single? Would it help at all going even bigger like 210lb on the single?
Other quick specs, its an aluminum 5.3, basic build with a 7875 turbo and a smallish cam. Running through a 4l80e, unlocked.
Hi guys, I suppose I should just go ahead and do twin 450 fuel pumps but currently I have a single 535 walbro setup. The car has 80lb Siemens injectors and is topping out around 550whp on e85. Would going to 120lb get it to 700whp capable on the single? Would it help at all going even bigger like 210lb on the single?
Other quick specs, its an aluminum 5.3, basic build with a 7875 turbo and a smallish cam. Running through a 4l80e, unlocked.
the calculator online shows 86lb injectors for your goal on pump gas, 126lb injectors for e85. This assumes 850 crank hp, .65 bsfc, and an 80% injector duty cycle. .65 bsfc is on the higher side, if calculated with a .60 bsfc it puts you at needing a 117lb injector. And if allowing up to 85% injector duty cycle, it would put you at needing a 110lb injector on e85.
120 lb injectors will probably be fine for your goals, you might not reach exactly 700whp depending on your combo but you’ll be close.
Nice, thats about what I saw with an online calculator. I was thinking I didn't have enough fuel pump but I remembered, I originally had the 120s but the shop that put them on thought one was bad. So I gave them my spare set of 80s and surprise surprise, ran out of fuel at 550whp.
It turns out it was a wiring mistake on their part. And they charged me for all that diagnosing, fun. I think it cost $200 everytime you blink in their shop. I'm still a little salty over how much it cost vs some of the quality of work. Turns out I must be better at this stuff than I thought, I was surprised at some of the mistakes and missteps they took. But I digress, from now on I'll just work on it myself unless I absolutely can't do something. I can do bad all by myself.
I have a set of 9 Genuine Bosch 210's for sale: $240.00 shipped
They have about 30 miles on them. LS3 length (short), EV6 connectors. Came from VS Racing.
No reason to not go big and buy once w e85 IMO. Doing so also allows you to lower your base fuel pressure and extend the pumps power potential more. Those in tank pumps are sensitive to pressure and lower base pressures allow them to make quite a bit more power. You can run 35psi of base pressure (instead of the usual 58psi) with 220's and still have plenty of injector.
As ForceFed said above, the bosch 210s paired with a lower base pressure will make your 535 pump go a longgg way.
I run 210s and a 525 pump at 40psi base, 16psi boost thru a 7875 on my 6.0 on E85 and it is doing great. But dyno says 650whp. My calculated fuel flow thru my Holley Terminator is 800lb/hr, pressure does not seem to be dropping off.
I personally wouldn't be dropping my base fuel pressure down to 35 psi especially with large injectors. The spray pattern just turns to **** and it doesn't atomize the fuel very well at all with that low of a differential pressure. Yes I know you can extend the range of a fuel pump with a lower base pressure but I would be doing everything I could to keep differential pressure up around 50-60 psi.
The spray patterns I've seen (especially with a 220lb CNG inj.) looked no different or better at higher pressures. It was simply a squirt gun like spray with zero pattern no matte how high I went. I get sight isn't exactly a technical measurement. But I was under the impression all the straight pintle designs were just trash as far as atomization was concerned no matter what you did. My DEKA 80's looked no better.
The spray patterns I've seen (especially with a 220lb CNG inj.) looked no different or better at higher pressures. It was simply a squirt gun like spray with zero pattern no matte how high I went. I get sight isn't exactly a technical measurement. But I was under the impression all the straight pintle designs were just trash as far as atomization was concerned no matter what you did. My DEKA 80's looked no better.
I don't use the CNG injectors but on all of the other ones it does make a difference. I've talked with Paul before at ID specifically about pressure and it's effects and I've done some testing as well. I've seen throttle responsiveness increase with a higher base pressure and injector timing seems to have more of an effect as well, presumably due to better atomization as pressure was the only change. You can also look at the pattern on the spark plug tip and see a "cleaner" burn so to speak, and fueling seems a lot more consistent when looking through logs as well at higher boost levels, etc. Generally the only time I see problems crop up is when the fuel pressure differential gets down around 35 psi or so as well which also tells me it's "not good" down there. Now do different designs have different outputs/patterns, absolutely. As for Deka 80s, I would throw those in the trash as well as those have all sorts of low pulse width problems to begin with and are so non-linear down low it's hard to even compensate for.
Fun trivia, the SD 80s were a rushed design based on the success of the SD 60s because back then everybody needed more flow from a high impedance injector and it was about the only game in town. You can guess what SD did to make the 80 from the 60 and why it had such a negative impact on the spray pattern, fueling linearity at lower pulse widths, and it's bad affects on driveability...
No doubt something like an ID or atomizer style injector will have better pattern. The BOSCH 220's are all CNG injectors that I've seen. There is no cover over the pintle to atomize. So if you are stuck with that design anyway... I don't think pressure is much of a concern. I'll say that when I ran better injectors that atomized well, I had really bad issues with the black "E85 Goo" crashing out of the mixture in the manifold an on injector tips. Local buddy had the same with his "atomizer" injectors injectors". I was literally cutting the stuff off my injector with a razor blade. Switching to the crappy "squirt gun" injectors with no notable spray pattern eliminated this issue almost completely. Same with the OEM flex injectors that are "decapped".
Spray pattern on these 80lb inj's were great! But it crapped up quick on e85. This setup has SS hard lines and a new poly tank. There was no contamination in the tanks or filters. The "goo" in out gas just crashes out of the mixture when finely atomized in a hot manifold.
I don't use the CNG injectors but on all of the other ones it does make a difference. I've talked with Paul before at ID specifically about pressure and it's effects and I've done some testing as well. I've seen throttle responsiveness increase with a higher base pressure and injector timing seems to have more of an effect as well, presumably due to better atomization as pressure was the only change. You can also look at the pattern on the spark plug tip and see a "cleaner" burn so to speak, and fueling seems a lot more consistent when looking through logs as well at higher boost levels, etc. Generally the only time I see problems crop up is when the fuel pressure differential gets down around 35 psi or so as well which also tells me it's "not good" down there. Now do different designs have different outputs/patterns, absolutely. As for Deka 80s, I would throw those in the trash as well as those have all sorts of low pulse width problems to begin with and are so non-linear down low it's hard to even compensate for.
Fun trivia, the SD 80s were a rushed design based on the success of the SD 60s because back then everybody needed more flow from a high impedance injector and it was about the only game in town. You can guess what SD did to make the 80 from the 60 and why it had such a negative impact on the spray pattern, fueling linearity at lower pulse widths, and it's bad affects on driveability...
The funny thing about that is I sold my 60's and put in 80's and my car idled better than it ever has before. I've had 80's in my car for years, they work just fine. No, I'm not the fastest guy around, but for a budget injector they are just fine. I'd rather have these than snake eaters and I don't see the value in $1000+ ID injectors which i've seen more of those torch motors than I've seen Dekas. As a matter of fact, I have not read about anyone having issues with dekas, not saying it doesn't happen.... but perception is reality and i havent seen any talk of issues.... except this one post saying to throw them in the trash.
To anyone reading this that is considering dekas.... don't hesitate...they are excellent budget injectors
No doubt something like an ID or atomizer style injector will have better pattern. The BOSCH 220's are all CNG injectors that I've seen. There is no cover over the pintle to atomize. So if you are stuck with that design anyway... I don't think pressure is much of a concern. I'll say that when I ran better injectors that atomized well, I had really bad issues with the black "E85 Goo" crashing out of the mixture in the manifold an on injector tips. Local buddy had the same with his "atomizer" injectors injectors". I was literally cutting the stuff off my injector with a razor blade. Switching to the crappy "squirt gun" injectors with no notable spray pattern eliminated this issue almost completely. Same with the OEM flex injectors that are "decapped".
Spray pattern on these 80lb inj's were great! But it crapped up quick on e85. This setup has SS hard lines and a new poly tank. There was no contamination in the tanks or filters. The "goo" in out gas just crashes out of the mixture when finely atomized in a hot manifold.
I've heard of the black goo issues online but I've been using E85 for 15 years now and have seen thousands of cars over the years tuning professionally and have yet to see it. I really think that stems from contaminated fuel somehow but just haven't seen it.
The funny thing about that is I sold my 60's and put in 80's and my car idled better than it ever has before.
I don't believe you, or actually I believe that you believe they idled better than the 60s but that's just not true. The 80s are completely unstable and non-linear below 2 ms with a pencil tip spray pattern and that's where a majority of cars are going to idle and be at light part throttle, so if idled better for you because it was "smoother" it was really just muddy. By comparison the 60s are pretty linear down to around 1.3ms and have a cone spray pattern to atomize the fuel and definitely idle better.
Originally Posted by Kfxguy
I've had 80's in my car for years, they work just fine. No, I'm not the fastest guy around, but for a budget injector they are just fine.
I believe that you believe they work just fine. The Deka 80s came out back in 2009 I believe, today we have injectors that are WAY better for not much more money at all.
Originally Posted by Kfxguy
I'd rather have these than snake eaters and I don't see the value in $1000+ ID injectors which i've seen more of those torch motors than I've seen Dekas. As a matter of fact, I have not read about anyone having issues with dekas, not saying it doesn't happen.... but perception is reality and i havent seen any talk of issues.... except this one post saying to throw them in the trash.
This is one of things, and I don't know how to put this any nicer, you don't know what you don't know. I'm sure you've seen more ID injectors torch motors than Dekas, hell I definitely have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the injectors themselves. The people running ID injectors are making a LOT more power than people running Dekas and with more power comes more risk and a much higher probability of pushing it too hard and breaking something. That has nothing to do with the injector itself and I would take an ID injector over pretty much any other injector out there. This is coming from somebody who has been tuning professionally for the last 20+ years and I've seen pretty much all of them.
Originally Posted by Kfxguy
To anyone reading this that is considering dekas.... don't hesitate...they are excellent budget injectors
The Deka 60s are a great budget injector, the 80s are not. Spend the extra hundred bucks and get a good set of EV14 based Bosch injectors like Fuel Injector Clinics and get the benefit of a better spray pattern, an actual good flow match, and much better idle and driveability with linear pulse widths down low.
I don't believe you, or actually I believe that you believe they idled better than the 60s but that's just not true. The 80s are completely unstable and non-linear below 2 ms with a pencil tip spray pattern and that's where a majority of cars are going to idle and be at light part throttle, so if idled better for you because it was "smoother" it was really just muddy. By comparison the 60s are pretty linear down to around 1.3ms and have a cone spray pattern to atomize the fuel and definitely idle better..
Agree 100% with this, I've fought the Deka 80's idle problem for maybe a year now and the problem doesn't exist when I use Deka 60's. Note I am on 93 octane on a 5.3 with 750rpm idle (about as low of a pulsewidth as you'll see in real use). The Deka 80's were as sloppy or worse I think than the Flex Decaps I tried to use at idle. After all this time, they idle "ok" but certainly not great.
BUT, I don't know why, swapping to 60's on my L33 single-digit-psi turbo and only doing injector/VE tuning, the 80's did measurably BETTER at the track. I know it doesn't make sense, but even though I own Deka 60's I ride daily with the 80's because of this. You'd think same amount of fuel at a given RPM should mean the same power, but I guess the deka 80's delivering the spray faster made a big difference in my particular build. Confirmed not only at the track but much testing using HPTuners acceleration metrics. I think the 60's took away 2 tenths in the quarter (11.5's vs. 11.7's). Same AFR, same BOOST, same timing, nowhere near maxxing out the injector and both sets were balanced on an autool flow bench cleaner/tester
Originally Posted by NicD
The Deka 60s are a great budget injector, the 80s are not. Spend the extra hundred bucks and get a good set of EV14 based Bosch injectors like Fuel Injector Clinics and get the benefit of a better spray pattern, an actual good flow match, and much better idle and driveability with linear pulse widths down low.
I agree with this as well. I am probably one of the cheapest members on this site. I use bargain basement everything. But for the Deka 80's, I spent so much time getting them just to an acceptable idling level, looking back I wish I did another slighty better injector. Not the huge money ones, just better. High flow but still solid low pulsewidth performance.
Another big problem with DEKA 80’s is they are cloned more than any other injector I’ve seen. Sometimes hard to find a real deka 80 these days. The knock offs look completely legit and can be had on aliexpress or alibaba for under $10 each. Suppliers buy these and sell them on amazon or ebay for near market prices and make a fortune on us poor consumers.
Also wonder if the average Joe having idle problems with 80’s knows how to correctly setup the dead time VS pressure and get that portion of “tuning” correct.
I believe the 80’s I tuned on were “legit”. They idled pump gas and E85 down to 800rpm or so on the several sets I’ve used with small bore LS motors. I never had an issue with them in the applications I used them in. Not claiming they are on par with an injector that costs 3-4x as much… But if the difference is a smooth 650-700rpm idle VS a smooth enough 800ish rpm idle… then I don’t see the value in the “better” injector performance wise. I’m sure a nice cone pattern will make a smidge more power as well, but I can’t imagine its enough to warrant the extra cost for the average hotrodder.
Another big problem with DEKA 80’s is they are cloned more than any other injector I’ve seen. Sometimes hard to find a real deka 80 these days. The knock offs look completely legit and can be had on aliexpress or alibaba for under $10 each. Suppliers buy these and sell them on amazon or ebay for near market prices and make a fortune on us poor consumers.
Also wonder if the average Joe having idle problems with 80’s knows how to correctly setup the dead time VS pressure and get that portion of “tuning” correct.
I believe the 80’s I tuned on were “legit”. They idled pump gas and E85 down to 800rpm or so on the several sets I’ve used with small bore LS motors. I never had an issue with them in the applications I used them in. Not claiming they are on par with an injector that costs 3-4x as much… But if the difference is a smooth 650-700rpm idle VS a smooth enough 800ish rpm idle… then I don’t see the value in the “better” injector performance wise. I’m sure a nice cone pattern will make a smidge more power as well, but I can’t imagine its enough to warrant the extra cost for the average hotrodder.
i have a 5.3, it idles at 675rpm with deka 80’s. I’ve had it at 600 but I have an under drive pulley and it doesn’t play nice with the power steering, alternator and ac compressor. I have it idling at 15.7:1 afr, no stink with no cats.
Another big problem with DEKA 80’s is they are cloned more than any other injector I’ve seen. Sometimes hard to find a real deka 80 these days. The knock offs look completely legit and can be had on aliexpress or alibaba for under $10 each. Suppliers buy these and sell them on amazon or ebay for near market prices and make a fortune on us poor consumers.
Also wonder if the average Joe having idle problems with 80’s knows how to correctly setup the dead time VS pressure and get that portion of “tuning” correct.
I believe the 80’s I tuned on were “legit”. They idled pump gas and E85 down to 800rpm or so on the several sets I’ve used with small bore LS motors. I never had an issue with them in the applications I used them in. Not claiming they are on par with an injector that costs 3-4x as much… But if the difference is a smooth 650-700rpm idle VS a smooth enough 800ish rpm idle… then I don’t see the value in the “better” injector performance wise. I’m sure a nice cone pattern will make a smidge more power as well, but I can’t imagine its enough to warrant the extra cost for the average hotrodder.
I have 80s and they were good enough and the car ran fine but switched to the Bosch 210's.
The cloning is a real deal. I had my 80s warrantied (Long Story) and if I didnt get them from racetronix or a reputable dealer I dont know if I would feel good selling them like I am.
Way to many parts getting copied for cheap and sold for just as cheap.
Big difference between a good deal and a cheap part
05-29-2024, 08:54 AM
120lb vs 80lb injectors 
