both fans shared the same wiring, both fans saw all the same voltages and signals. both fans were running when one died. why did only one fail?
the failure was a dead short across the power input lines. you never sent back the bad ecu like i asked.
you keep repeating the same bullshit and none of it is based in reality. i guess if you repeat it enough it becomes true? you talk like you have never used an aftermarket ecu to control external devices, calling it an 'experiment' and blaming that for the failure.

as ive said, the fans seem fine though the ecms could use modernization, your attitude and arrogance are the problem.

 

It takes a special skill set to work retail. A tip of the hat to those of you who do.

 

I do, I'd never treat any customer like this guy. I work at a dealership.

 

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4274831
interesting.

 

I don't consider it false, its the only other measurement of that fan outside of your claims. Your numbers could be just like every other manufacture who wants to sell a product... Trust but verify. You don't provide Ft/min or any real fan dimensions for the blades themselves. I would love to calculate just the numbers and provide that insight here. If your fans actually produce the numbers you claim then you should have no problem to post that data and the specs for us to come to the same conclusion. Even then I would still want an "non delta PAG" source to confirm the ft/min airflow. I'm not bashing your product, if it works then it works and the numbers aren't skewed on anything I post. I find it annoying that there is so little info out on your product (100k units sold? and maybe less than 15 videos and less than 10 posts available on google) or brushless fan products in general. Most people just say... moves a ton of air... blah blah blah. As long as it works they don't really care. If I was spending $500 on a fan I would spend the money on a $30 tool to verify its claims just saying.

I also never tested your 16" fan either but I did use your numbers for the 16" fan calculations. I'm basically using your anemometer number and dimensions just like I did for the 18" version.

If I believed everything that is marketed then the amazon LED flashlights really put out 1,000,000 lumens and you of all people know how exaggerated fan CFM numbers are on the market... they are just like lumens.

 

So according to PAGs graph he specs 17-17.5amps at 0.1" - 1" H20 as the max. So your like 1-2amps higher than that. Maybe a higher restriction?

I actually wanted to clarify this... I looked and he states 14 amps on the main 12" fan page but in his fan docs with the CFM/Amp graphs it will never get to 14amps unless the CFM is down to nothing and at a high restriction. In fact if you look at the graph the fan actually never really gets below 17-17.5 amps so to get 2100cfm you really pull 17 amps at anything less than .4" H20. The average rad is .5-.7 H20 according to google (i haven't tested anything like this) which would put this fan in the 1800-2100cfm range.

 

I never sent a video with a radiator shroud and 18" fan for airflow cfm and ft/min. We did the 16" and I put together a very comprehensive Excel SS, see previous posts. I thought we focused on the 16" to keep it apples and apples with all the other fans, proform and flexwave.

Yes, the numbers your posting on our 18" fan are false, you did not test the fan and the way you reverse engineered the numbers from another post is bonkers. If you dont believe published airflow data, then buy one and test it yourself. Also please show the Spal 18" fan data on a shroud on a radiator, you know apples to apples.

We do not overstate our numbers, the 16" fan data should be proof of that. But for some reason you're hell bent on the 18" Spal fan. The Delta PAG will out perform that too. I think we have an 18 complete assembly on the test bench today. I try to take a video. I'll also take blade measurements

This is not magic (Arthur-C-Clarke) Delta PAG has physics on its side, with the 3" diameter hub and other technological advantages, its unbeatable.

 

If you don't read my posts then I can't help you. Your 16" met your spec according to your ft/min measurement but it still underperformed (total CFM) compared to the spal 16". Your 18" will likely be less than the spal 18" but could still meet your spec. You claim 4100cfm with the 18" and I already measured 5100cfm with the spal 18" since your "likely" to meet 4100cfm thats good and all and you can prove for fan flows are legit. The data I got was from the corvette forum post which I linked to. That person bought your fan (and maybe shroud) and installed on his car. He provided measurements via an anemometer which I reversed his math and photos to get the numbers minus the hub and blade DIA which he did not account for. Its not rocket science and your an engineer right? Reverse engineering is a thing right? I just posted the 18" numbers as thats all I have been able to find that is OUTSIDE of your measurements (no 16" as of yet). The idea would be to get a regular joe who paid for the fan to provide measurements and airflow (unbiased review). Since I don't have that I just provided what I had. Your 16" numbers are fine but to say the 18" is invalid is nonsense. Trendsetter is talking about a 12" fan which your 16" fan is also irrelevant to then so does it really matter? Do you want to provide your 12" fan ft/min flow numbers as well? He is already stating that your fan amps are all over the place on your website which I confirmed is it 14 or 18amps for the 12". You also sold the 16" for 2,800 at some point and then bumped that to 3100cfm by cranking up the rpms. I would love to have your 12, 14, 16 and 18" data available for the masses. Even if someone else can use that and purchase it only benefits you. Someone is going to google proform brushless fan/brushless fans and this thread will come up and you could make a sale... if you knew how sales worked your best bet is to have clear and concise info on multiple platforms. 95% of info that pops up when I google delta PAG is your website and links. Most people want reviews and other channels to weed out the bull$hit which is where forums/reddit/youtube etc come into play. I'm literally telling you there is NO actual airflow or real amp draw info about your product out on the internet. How you have sold "100k" units and no one says anything about it online is staggeringly suspicious. How you take 4 weeks to build something that is literally universal (motors, ECUs, control modules) is mind boggling as well. Are you cranking out the molds for the fans per older? Why don't you have stock of fan shrouds, blades, controllers and ECUs available? You seem like you sell enough of them... Your motors are the same in all the fans, slap them in a different mount and your done that doesn't take 4 weeks.

Lets do a quick search - "16" delta pag fan review"

• First thread page 1 NO real measurements or airflow besides you claiming your CFM number- https://www.tbssowners.com/threads/c....241568/page-3
• next thread further down the page This is the corvette forum thread I posted and got my numbers from (This is for the 18" not the 16") see how that pops up bc there IS NOT more real info for google to pull from- https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...fan-trial.html
• 3rd thread mentions an install no measurements but this is a 16" PAG but its only rated at 2800cfm... I guess you sped it up to get more airflow? - https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...roblems-3.html
• Post 16 same guy from previous thread - just regurgitates your website info word for word. Did no testing of his own. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...is-better.html
• This is actually a good thread (you got into it with a spal engineer) which I've read and yet you still don't post ft/min numbers... just CFM and you say "immense amount of air" just like in this thread you use buzz words instead of numbers - https://www.tbssowners.com/threads/c....241568/page-3
• Already on page 2 of search results - You got roasted really good on an offroad site that was like 24 pages long I won't link to that

I think the point is its time to nut up or shut up. Lets talk numbers, ft/min, amps and fan blade dimensions. Put them up, well calculate them out and you can be the winner. Maybe you won't as you haven't done it yet, then you can claim the lowest CFM per amp if amps are provided as well. Why don't you have videos on your site that show the CFM and amp usage? If they flow what you say it seriously only helps you, when you avoid direct answering it makes you look like your hiding something. I again will say I think the low amp efficiency is less of an issue these days. If someone is looking for a single 18" they are looking for some serious cooling, why drop a 4100cfm 18" vs a 5100cfm 18" in the same space? IS someone going to drop a 3200cfm 16" vs a 3500cfm 16"? Give them the numbers and let them decide!

 

Seriously, stop lying to people and posting false data. Do you work for CNN? Yes, there isn't much airflow data from individual purchasers for Both Spal and DeltaPAG. Show me a Spal posting that gives you Ft/min, that is not yours. Probably because people only care if it solves their problems and we have an excellent success rate. We've replaced a ton of brushless spal fans on corvette because they're dropping like files. GM even got sued because of the fan going into limp mode.

Sure, we'll post the 18" videos too, just waiting for my wiring guys to wrap up a current build. Please post a video of the 18" spal on a shroud on a core, ft/min. For apples to apples comparison. You didn't do that one. Is it because you need to fabricate a custom shroud, ok do it, we'll wait. Don't they sell those for $1,000, no controls?

Your previous post you said we inflate our data, which is also a lie, do you ever tell the truth? We posted the 16" fan video tests, do we inflate our data in regards to that?

Anyway, we nutted all over you on the 16, and I'll have a video coming out soon showing 3,600 at a much lower amperage than 34. Basically software modifying for higher max speed. Why do the number for the 16 not count? because they don't look good for you? seriously what's your relationship with spal? That's alot of internet digging for brushless fan stuff. I don't even have all those, and it's my job.

 

In late on this thread...
"We posted the 16" fan video tests".
I am installing the 16" on my 55 Chevy, using the Holley Terminator X Max as a control.
Where do I find the vid?

 

Hey Buzzard, it was #272. Would love to see photos of your car and install

 

you gotta be the dumbest engineer I’ve ever seen… you work for ford?

first I post numbers, a video of your fan from you or a video of a fan from someone else is the same. Why is yours any different? You done mostly nothing but nut all over yourself. First your ft/min is 500ft/min slower than the spal at 16” and you’re so hyped about being 700ft/min faster than the proform why don’t u look at the numbers. You made your hub small and reduced fan air output to achieve a lower amp per CFM… congrats. And yet you still flow less even with a smaller hub? The spal will actually drop its amps as my tests are 12.6v but you’ve inspired me to test at running voltage I bet your amp difference shrinks. Spal also rates the fans at 13v and not typical 14-14.5v. spell it out for you in crayon…

16” spal 3109ft/min @ 3511cfm @ 34 amps at 12.6v
16” Pag 2640ft/min @ 3219cfm @ 20amps or is it 22amps? Do you even know what your website says?

here’s wat im gona do… I’ll take a video of the fans at the correct voltage 16” spal and the spal 18” with a shroud. That way you have nothing else to say. You must be really bad at your job (don’t worry we already know) as it’s taken me 30min to find all this.

here’s a sneak peak of the 18” at a low 11.3v and these go for $650 with a 6 gauge power harness. I paid $520 and no need for a controller as a Holley term x controls it or $60 widgetman controller if you don’t have an ecu that’s capable. Oh hey guess wat, 3 - 1/32” deep at the motor everything else is less deep than your fan. You couldnt get your fan that close to the core without a 1/4” deep shroud which is useles. So try again.







oh, would you look at that… the first thread on a search and the guy goes in deep on a spal brushless

https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1...-brushless-fan

This whole thread is spal and OEM- rock crawl/off road is the most demanding of a cooling system. You should
know it well bc you got no where with them. https://irate4x4.com/threads/cooling-fan-tech.24669/

oh look another site that has lots of info about spal and OEM brushless but NO info about yours. He even states he can’t find **** on your stuff. I actually spoke with him regarding your fans and his info is just hearsay as he’s never known anyone or seen anyone post info about your fans. https://www.240turbo.com/BrushlessFa...atingbrushless

heres a video
same guy tests the jeep brushless
12” spal brushless aux fan



Nothing here to prove but flow. Yours flow less given the same hole size, then you crank them up or trying to reach and that makes you look bad. If I bought your fan am I getting the 2800cfm or the sped up 3100cfm or the super sped up 3600cfm?

waiting on your wiring guys!? No wonder you take 4
weeks to ship anything. It should take 30min to run the wires judging from what I see in all the pics. Also since yours are all basically the same parts just in different fan blade and mount sizes.

 

Well here you go. Spal 18” 850w on a shroud with the deepest part at 3”. Pulls 3640ft/min =5240cfm through a dual 1” rad core, a 1” trans cooler that covers the whole core and a 31x19x3” intercooler. with the engine running at 14.2v it pulls 62.4 amps at 100%.


with the spal 16” I wasn’t comfortable running the engine given the tight space and my chargers weren’t able to keep up so voltage dropped. I did manage to take a video. Pulling at 13.2v @ 2952 ft/min = 3332 CFM dual 1” core rad and 3/4” trans cooler at 35.5amps. Hard to get a good Reading while recording and saw a high of 3109 ft/min = 3510cfm right after when i had my other hand available.


Vintage air shroud 3” depth 28”x19core coverage tapers off towards the sides real good with high speed flaps. Very low profile I saved over an inch from the derale at the deepest point and more savings at the ends of the tanks.

 

This has deviated way too far off the "fair fan shootout" "just the numbers please" analysis. Now we have intercooler and trans coolers... there's no way we can do apples to apples with this. I'm not going buy intercoolers and transcoolers to replicate what you have. But you do have a 16", with shroud and radiator. All you need to do is get a charging system that can handle the amp demand to keep it at 13v. Maybe it will be more efficient then.

Clear your mind and focus. This is all over the place. But got to admit the witty responses from both sides are a hoot.

We need to bring this back to where it's relevant to everyone on this forum. Ie: Proform, flexwave, spal brushed, derale, spal brushless and DeltaPAG brushless. Keeping everything apples to apples. The 16" is the most popular and most common size available on the market and we already did a ton of testing with 16s. I even put an Excel spread sheet together. Think how awsome this could be with all 16's available on one spreadsheet. So let's finalize that, fine tune your 16 with proper voltage at your end. This forum could be the end all, be all fan analysis.

I wonder if the 16" brushed spal will be more efficient than the 16" brushless spal.

Also, to KFXguy's credit, let's add cost. With and without controls/shroud. Price is definitely a factor in a purchasers decision. A comprehensive cost analysis will be helpfull for everyone.

Cost of a DeltaPAG 16" without controller is $389, with digital controller & relay: $489, custom aluminum shroud adds $289. And no, the stupid Chinese pwm generator with **** is not a fan controller. What are you gunna do when the temp goes up or down? Run out in traffic, pop your hood to turn the ****? There are a ton of real fan controllers on the market, if they're good quality or not, that's for the consumer to decide. Let's use those for pricing

 

post your flow numbers either way. I don’t think the PAG 18 will flow as much as the spal even with the restriction. I’m not removing to install on a traditional rad by itself. Flow numbers would be higher without as much restriction on the Spal but I am assuming your flow numbers match your claimed numbers. At least confirm that.

Only way for me to get 14+ volts would be to run the car up in the air but then I wouldn’t be able to see the other meters.

Be my guest on comparing 16” I just want data on the internet for people to find. A spal 16 brushed is pretty close as far as amps per CFM but it looses out on controllability and being able to adjust fan speed as the brushless. I also think the max CFM from a brushed spal 16” is low 2000s CFM which is not close to the 3300-3500 of the brushless fan.

the Chinese PWM controller is just for testing. I have full control over speed through the Holley ECM. Which is how I run it but for full speed testing the PWM generator is easier to use for full speed. If you don’t have a ECU there is a PWM controller for $60 from widgetman that will work with any temperature sensor including teeing into the one on the engine already. It offers full control with two presses of a button and controls most of all the PWM fans on the market. Just set the low and high point and it controls it from that.

 

Sure, i'll post a video for the 18 soon. Airflow will be spot on, as usual. The engineers at Delta PAG are **** as fuu

Why was **** dotted off in your reply? Are you in the UK? Doesn't **** mean ***** there?

We need to get accurate 16" fan voltage and amp measurements for the Spal 16 brushless. Cant you use jumper cables from the car to your test battery in that external setup you had?

Also, regarding your setup, you would have done much better with two 16" fans than the one 18". I really doubt you get much airflow from the rad corners or hub area based on how close the fan is to the core. Most likely alot of dead spots, ie low core utilization. Core utilization is equally as important as airflow, but I understand, you just don't have the room.

To do that cooling system properly would require a complete redesign. Hey if this works for you, at 65amps, there you go.

What's the retail price of the dewit fan and also the 16" fan? I'll modify my spreadsheet

 

2678 ft/min area 1.546 ft square = 4,140 cfm at 27amps

 

I might be able to do the jumper cable idea except I don't love doing that with LifePo4 batteries. I'll get the numbers either way (maybe tonight). I'm likely going to have to jack the front of the car up as I also want to test the alternator charging at idle with the fans on ( I didn't notice anything the couple of times I've already had the car out already) but I should be able to do that from under the car. One thing I do think is that the LS3 (camaro pump) doesn't really flow alot at idle. I don't see any aftermarket high flow versions available like the flowkooler for the LS3. I do see they make a LS2 version tho.

I'm actually only a stones throw away from Long Island so be careful lol.

Why would I run dual 16" that would be a core length of 32" I also don't love when a fan overhangs the tanks on the ends as that also affects fan flow/performance. My rad has 2.5" exact from the core to the steering box so anything that overlapped in that area would have to be 2.5" or less including the area over the tank which is 1/2" or further out than the core (so 2" between the tank and the steering box). I have 27.5" x 19" core which is 522.5 sq inches. The 18" fan has a 254.5 sq inch coverage and the dual spal 13" fans had 113.1 sq inches each which is 226.2 sq inches total.( I'm not including center hub area which the 18 is 47sqin and the 13s are 32 sqin ) I've gained 28 sq inches of area that the fan covers or 13sqin after hub subtraction. On top of that i've also increased the CFM from 2709.24 cfm (brushed spal 13's) to 5240cfm with the spal 18 which is literally almost double the CFM. To also add to that the derale shroud was 26"x18" (outer DIA) = 468 sq inches which is about 89-90% coverage the new shroud has 100% coverage and is no less than 3/4" at the most shallow point which is still enough for air to pull out of the core. The area behind the motor hub and rad is at least 1/2" and the shroud has 4 high speed flaps on each side of the fan. The firebird setup also has ZERO cooling issues and was doing just fine with the spal 13s. I was able to maintain less than 190*F at idle in summer heat and it would mostly be in the mid 180s and while cruising would dip into the 170s. Only reason I changed it out was the flexalite variable speed controller made a terrible racket on startup which I don't think the fans would like long term. Flexalite wasn't much help as to why and the flexalite 16" flexwave made a similar noise but it was much less. The 18" spal/vintage air solved all my issues, soft start (no noise), full variable speed, 100% core coverage, lower profile and double the CFM.

The 16" spal with shroud is $799 from dewitts which is more expensive than the vintage air 18". These 16" are popping up on FB marketplace for $250-300 with shrouds as I have seen 2 in the last 3 days. The best bang for your buck is the 18" tho no question. I didn't pay the $799 as I got the fan for $250 with a universal shroud/harness and the dewitts shroud for $180 which puts me at $430 for that combo which is controlled through 1 wire in my holley Term X so its super clean.

 

As promised here is the 16” spal 500w brushless on a Dewitt’s shroud on the dual 1” radiator with engine running. It’s tight and not really easy to get an airflow reading.

 

I had to double check that the forum user "deltapag" posted this. I assume someone else with a better attitude took over, good.


(reply to whats in bold) the china pwm isn't a controller, you are correct. But, like I did myself, you can add a relay and it becomes a two speed. My factory setup is two speed and has two out puts. My fans cut on low speed at 185, turn on high speed at 199 and turn off high speed at 195. Works perfectly.