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14.56amps!? I need to adjust my SS. See picture, this is very good data, would be better if we can make them all on the same thickness shroud, that would be really apples to apples. Also, I don't get it! How is a brushed motor fan more efficient than a brushless fan!? That doesn't make sense. See below:
If I had to guess I think the flex wave blade design has something to do with it. It seems to work honestly. I really wanted to put it on the proform motor but the size and mounting is all wrong. It’s also the 2nd largest fan blade design. I also do not know the RPM on that fan but I might pick up a rpm tester to see. I think it’s one of those big fan spin slow moves decent air for the load.
edit: from my memory I read somewhere that thr wavy blade increases surface area in a shorter package. So the 15.5” blade performs more like a 16-17” blade length. I remember I wasn’t prepared for the rotational startup of that fan. It tried to spin itself off the rad on startup. A big heavy blade compared to the proform.
Last edited by customblackbird; Aug 30, 2024 at 03:39 PM.
Well if we were to look at this logically. I see a few things I could point out.
3000hp BB cars don't run for very long and some don't even really need cooling systems. Radiators and fans can be undersized substantially on a race car. Also what fuel are they burning? Alcohol motors don't get as hot just like e85 acts like an intercooler. Most drag cars will hit the water box at 160, stage and at the end of a run get to 170*F and shut down.
You said "fans" and not fan. Sounds like your talking about multiple fans to net your claims. Most cars don't have much over 27.5" cores so you can't run dual anything over 12-14" and have overlap. Now trucks and some older vehicles can fit bigger cores where dual 16" is possible.
The math actually proves the opposite of your statement. The PAG 16" has a larger usable surface area of 1.219 sqft and your pulling 3,219 CFM which we know is 2640 ft/min. The SPAL even tho larger overall DIA pulls 3109 ft/min at a smaller 1.129 sqft usual area. So the SPAL is more efficient at moving more air and doing so through a smaller area. If you took the fan blade design and used it at the same specs/useable area as the SPAL (Apples to apples) you would only flow 2,980 CFM. So your fan is less efficient than the spal in direct airflow measurements. We aren't talking about amps, just airflow. A given space flowing a specific amount of air. The same would go for SPAL if it used the PAG airflow area of 1.219 at 3109ft/min the spal jumps to 3790 CFM!
Your Amp efficiency is impressive for flow the fan produces and I will give credit where its due. In a setup where max CFM per amp is required you would probably come out ahead but in todays world OEM cars come with 170+ amp alternators and electricity/amps aren't really an issue. Also your ft/min or CFM would be reached sooner with the SPAL so the 34 amps is not an accurate comparison to the PAG fan. The actual amperage of the SPAL 16" would be around 27amps to equal the same CFM flow as the PAG... PAG is still 7 amps ahead. I actually want to test this so I will. I have numbers (small gauge wire tests so they are at reduced power) but the SPAL 16" needs about 2800 ft/min to equal the PAGs 3200 CFM. I'm confident that will be about 27ish amps.
I know your efficiencies come from the AC 3 phase motor and your long sweeping blades reduce load on the motor and noise at the higher RPMS. DC motors have lower efficiency but high controllability and starting torque. AC motors have higher efficiency but lower controllability and starting torque. This is why your MIN fan speeds are higher than the SPAL as well as have a higher MAX fan speed. So your start up speed is higher bc of the controllability and reduced TQ. Your Max speed is higher and more efficient as the speed increases and yet the max flow is still lower. Which means the SPAL is more efficient at pulling more air not only through a smaller area but also at a lower max fan speed. I know your design parameters are give and take for a range of efficiency. I don't think its a bad product at all but I also see it focused on efficiency in an area that doesn't apply anymore which is amperage. I would say increase the motor size even to 4" and increase the flan blade width/pitch to pick up some CFM. 35amps is not alot for fans these days. As you know the OEMs are using 6 gauge 70+amp fans. The days of sub 70s cars with 60 amp alternators are a dying breed with all the popular engine swaps and aftermarket alternator availability for high output charging I don't see this as being much of an issue now.
Im sorry but there alot of things wrong with all three of your points:
1: look up drag and drive or drag week
2: things can be designed in many ways
3&4: huh? uhm, yeah, efficiency. I dont think you understand what that word mean. How much work is being done and how much energy is needed to do it. OK, think about it this way. If you have Fan1, a 16" fan that's moving 3,500cfm at 34 amps and you have Fan2, another 16" fan that's moving 3,500cfm at 28amps, which one is more efficient? Fan2 right? Which one would you want to choose? Why it's more efficient is another story. Both the same size fan... let's skip the fact that one also needs 1.5 more thickness to do it too. Anyway, I'll have the guys program is to spin faster to 3,500cfm it shouldn't be to hard, and I am sure it won't be anywhere near 34amps.
5: that whole thing is wrong, the same motor technology is in most electric cars. The reason why our low speed is more airflow is because set the low speed to 1,200 rpms and it consumes only 4amps. We feel that low speed is adequate, you won't hear it at all and very low amps. If you like lower, ok it's a quick software change
Bro seriously, clear your mind. You twisted yourself into a pretzel to try to say spal is better, it's clearly not. Do you have a preference for spal for some reason?
Im sorry but there alot of things wrong with all three of your points:
1: look up drag and drive or drag week
2: things can be designed in many ways
3&4: huh? uhm, yeah, efficiency. I dont think you understand what that word mean. How much work is being done and how much energy is needed to do it. OK, think about it this way. If you have Fan1, a 16" fan that's moving 3,500cfm at 34 amps and you have Fan2, another 16" fan that's moving 3,500cfm at 28amps, which one is more efficient? Fan2 right? Which one would you want to choose? Why it's more efficient is another story. Both the same size fan... let's skip the fact that one also needs 1.5 more thickness to do it too. Anyway, I'll have the guys program is to spin faster to 3,500cfm it shouldn't be to hard, and I am sure it won't be anywhere near 34amps.
5: that whole thing is wrong, the same motor technology is in most electric cars. The reason why our low speed is more airflow is because set the low speed to 1,200 rpms and it consumes only 4amps. We feel that low speed is adequate, you won't hear it at all and very low amps. If you like lower, ok it's a quick software change
Bro seriously, clear your mind. You twisted yourself into a pretzel to try to say spal is better, it's clearly not. Do you have a preference for spal for some reason?
im aware of drag week, almost participated.
agreed, are you saying a single 16” fan is cooling a 3000hp car or multiple fans? You didn’t answer.
But your 16” fan performs less than the spal is my point. Both are 16” fans right? Yours pulls less CFM than the spal? Did you meet your spec, yes. But I notice your test fan is on a dual fan shroud and the other fan is not spinning thus is likely a big hole to help airflow. Is that shroud divided? your altering your fans system to achieve a goal, that you could squeak out 3500 CFM by raising your fan speed, why not do that as an option? Why not build a 16” fan that pulls more than 3500cfm at 34 amps? If you KISS your fan provides a higher CFM per amp but your fan doesn’t produce the most CFM. So which is better?
where do you get 1.5” more thickness? Spal is only 2 3/4 thick total and fits in a 2.5” shroud making it 3 1/4 deep total. Your fan with a proper 3/4-1” deep shroud is in fact thicker.
efficiency can be measured many ways no? Your measuring electrical to mechanical output efficiency which I already stated you are better. But efficiency in maximizing a fans output in a specific size or CFM per cuft is likely More important no? I don’t pick my fan based on amps I pick it on CFM to cool the combo. I then pick my alternator to handle the electric load of all my systems. I can fit a single 16”, do I choose 20amps for 3200cfm or 34amps for 3500cfm. Same issue that Kfxguy is having, he has limited space and needs max CFM why would he choose the lower CFM version? Most swaps are using 100+ amp alternators and 35amps is about on par with most large single or dual fan setups.
I’m not brand loyal at the moment. I’ve bought almost every fan and tested and I will use the winner. Most are going to be returned. Amps and power usage is not an issue for me, I have limited space of 4” before the turbo crossover and in a front mount turbo application I need max CFM. Your 16” would not be a good option for that car as it’s less CFM than my current dual 13” brushed spals. Your 18” could be promising but has no real info out. You’re in direct comparison with a 18” spal as those are my options. The spal pulls 4446 CFM through a core but I haven’t tested it with the correct gauge wire yet.
All brushless fans are driven by 3 phase ac at the motor itself. With deltas the dc to ac inverter is in a separate module, where as everyone else builds that converter into the motor itself.
They’re (bldc motors) all functionally the same from an electrical perspective.
the delta approach lets them have a smaller center hub and as a result more fin area per fan od.
All brushless fans are driven by 3 phase ac at the motor itself. With deltas the dc to ac inverter is in a separate module, where as everyone else builds that converter into the motor itself.
They’re (bldc motors) all functionally the same from an electrical perspective.
the delta approach lets them have a smaller center hub and as a result more fin area per fan od.
That is a bingo!
It's also the quality of the material used in the motor that also increases efficiency. For example, the Delta PAG fans are the only fans using Neodymium for PM which is know to significantly improve efficiency.
Boxing up the proform and Flexalite flex wave to go back to summit. got my cheapo rpm counter and decided to get some measurments of the rpms of those two fans maybe it will help someone.
It's also the quality of the material used in the motor that also increases efficiency. For example, the Delta PAG fans are the only fans using Neodymium for PM which is know to significantly improve efficiency.
how about you send me one of your 16” fans and I’ll swap the proform out for it and report real world results. My car has ac (live in Louisiana so it’s a must) and I sit in stop and go traffic everyday. If it cools my car off better than the proform, I have no brand loyalty so I’ll call a spade, a spade. I was going to buy one from you but you never followed through with sending me an invoice after I contacted you multiple times.
sidenote. I got my amp tester in (same as customblackbird) and the proform S blade fan pulls 19.9a and about 230 watts. It wants to levitate itself off the table so I had to hold it down. My battery (3s rc car lipo) was dropping to 11.xx volts. Which is to be expected since it’s an 11.1v battery.
how about you send me one of your 16” fans and I’ll swap the proform out for it and report real world results. My car has ac (live in Louisiana so it’s a must) and I sit in stop and go traffic everyday. If it cools my car off better than the proform, I have no brand loyalty so I’ll call a spade, a spade. I was going to buy one from you but you never followed through with sending me an invoice after I contacted you multiple times.
sidenote. I got my amp tester in (same as customblackbird) and the proform S blade fan pulls 19.9a and about 230 watts. It wants to levitate itself off the table so I had to hold it down. My battery (3s rc car lipo) was dropping to 11.xx volts. Which is to be expected since it’s an 11.1v battery.
I bet if you hooked it up to your running car for the test with a 14v those amps would have dropped a bit more. Still 19.9 amps is about 3 amps less than the straight blade.
That's not how our brushless technology works, also maybe why we're getting so much higher efficiency. Ok... our motor is a 3-phase AC PM soft-magnetic alloy motor. Our ECM module is a 3-phase sinusoidal inverter (from DC to AC) with variable frequency drive (vfd for speed control)
It's a bit more involved than simply PWMing, that's how we get soooo much power from only a 3" diameter motor. I know it seems like it, but it's not magic.
You dont need to run these faster. Please note that our fans cool +3000hp, +800cid race cars. If you need to run our fans faster to keep cool, there's something else wrong with your cooling system. On avg, DeltaPAG is about 50% better cooling & 30% less amperage.
OK so your controlling module is just separate from the fan itself. Does your control module accept a PWM input for controlling fan speed directly from another source? For example I currently control an older brushless fan (with an integrated controller) via a ground sink PWM output on my computer that I can control both the PWM percent as well as frequency that is driving the signal.
yea, I saw that. I follow him on YouTube. It’s a
cool feature but $$. Aren’t they like $160 per fan mount? Plus you still need the fans which are $100 used if your lucky on eBay or new at like $200
per motor. I also think these are 300-400w motors and these are 15” blades I think.
yea, I saw that. I follow him on YouTube. It’s a
cool feature but $$. Aren’t they like $160 per fan mount? Plus you still need the fans which are $100 used if your lucky on eBay or new at like $200
per motor. I also think these are 300-400w motors and these are 15” blades I think.
it was just another reliable option that didn’t require having to buy extra $150 modules due to failures.
OK so your controlling module is just separate from the fan itself. Does your control module accept a PWM input for controlling fan speed directly from another source? For example I currently control an older brushless fan (with an integrated controller) via a ground sink PWM output on my computer that I can control both the PWM percent as well as frequency that is driving the signal.
Looking at his wire diagrams the ECM at the top of the fan accepts a 12+ PWM signal for variable speed, or you can wire 12v to it for full speed only. Since your PWM is ground sink if his ECU doesnt have a pull up it might not work. YOu might have to wire in a pull up resistor and invert the signal to work with your ECU and the PAG ECU. Or you can get a widgetman controller for like $60 and it will do either PWM+ or PWM- signals and can work with any temp sensor.
OK so your controlling module is just separate from the fan itself. Does your control module accept a PWM input for controlling fan speed directly from another source? For example I currently control an older brushless fan (with an integrated controller) via a ground sink PWM output on my computer that I can control both the PWM percent as well as frequency that is driving the signal.
You'll need two outputs, one ground trigger to activate a power relay to power up the fan based on temperature and second, +12v PWM for speed control increasing and decreasing duty cycle based on temperature. Of you're not confident your controller can do this, purchase our complete kit that includes our digital controller. It only adds $75, includes 70amp relay/fuse module, harness, sensor and our digital controller. It's the most advanced fan controller on the market.
how about you send me one of your 16” fans and I’ll swap the proform out for it and report real world results. My car has ac (live in Louisiana so it’s a must) and I sit in stop and go traffic everyday. If it cools my car off better than the proform, I have no brand loyalty so I’ll call a spade, a spade. I was going to buy one from you but you never followed through with sending me an invoice after I contacted you multiple times.
sidenote. I got my amp tester in (same as customblackbird) and the proform S blade fan pulls 19.9a and about 230 watts. It wants to levitate itself off the table so I had to hold it down. My battery (3s rc car lipo) was dropping to 11.xx volts. Which is to be expected since it’s an 11.1v battery.
Unfortunately we are 4-6 weeks backlogged with orders. Also, sounds that our fan won't fit your setup. I thought you're cooling fine now with the whopping 50cfm increase over your previous brushed fan
Unfortunately we are 4-6 weeks backlogged with orders. Also, sounds that our fan won't fit your setup. I thought you're cooling fine now with the whopping 50cfm increase over your previous brushed fan
50 cfm increase over what? I never measured my factory fans cfm, so how do we know what the increase is? I have plenty of extra room, and I can build another shroud. But honestly you seem like a jacksss with your snarky, unprofessional replies to people. I don’t think it’s helping you to be honest, unless some people prefer to hassle with a jerk that’ll blame everything on them instead of trying to be helpful. By reading your comments I’ve realized I’ve potentially dodged a very expensive bullet.
at least my proforms out lasted the fan that trendsetter bought from you.
50 cfm increase over what? I never measured my factory fans cfm, so how do we know what the increase is? I have plenty of extra room, and I can build another shroud. But honestly you seem like a jacksss with your snarky, unprofessional replies to people. I don’t think it’s helping you to be honest, unless some people prefer to hassle with a jerk that’ll blame everything on them instead of trying to be helpful. By reading your comments I’ve realized I’ve potentially dodged a very expensive bullet.
at least my proforms out lasted the fan that trendsetter bought from you.
Then please stop asking us to send you our fans for free or at a discount.
Trendsetter clearly made a wiring mistake that was quickly and easily remedied and now is cooling with 4,200CFM.
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