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ok, I had forgotten what size you had. Man it felt like the proform just smoked the flex a lite by a long shot. Maybe there’s a huge difference in the flex a lites? I had the 236 which is rated at 2660cfm.
I've got the Flex a lite 239 pusher fan that says it's rated for 3000 CFM but if customblackbird tested them to be just over 2000 CFM that's a huge difference from rated to actual. I might have to think about getting a puller fan on the engine side of things offset of the pusher
ok, I had forgotten what size you had. Man it felt like the proform just smoked the flex a lite by a long shot. Maybe there’s a huge difference in the flex a lites? I had the 236 which is rated at 2660cfm.
I would guesstimate that one is prob closer to 1500cfm which then the proform would smoke as its pushing out at least 600cfm more.
I've got the Flex a lite 239 pusher fan that says it's rated for 3000 CFM but if customblackbird tested them to be just over 2000 CFM that's a huge difference from rated to actual. I might have to think about getting a puller fan on the engine side of things offset of the pusher
it feels like more air than it is I guess. You saw the video with the proform. I have the same anemometer and just plugging the numbers. I was surprised as well with the proform bc it seriously sounds wicked. If the proform was a real 15.5-16” it would be a good contender. What’s nice about the proform is that it’s dead simple to wire and work and seems to have great control with the eBay PWM generator. You coulf
slap this proform on and have a standard fan cheap controller send 12v to the PWM wire and bam you got soft start, ramp up and a decent air flow with hopefully increased longevity.
Agreed, you can test it. You bought every other fan, what's one more. I'm confident this will be your favorite one.
Yup, the 3" hub adds more than 15% to the overall area.
4 week turn around and I would likely have to get the controller. I'm sending back the flexalite and proform. Just the SPALs are sticking around.
I found this on my corvette forum, guy installed your 18" brushless fan on a dual row aluminum HP extra wide dewitts aftermarket radiator.
According to manufacturer, Fan draw is 26 amp @ 13vdc with Soft-Start. I can confirm I am drawing 28-30 amps and the soft start ramps up in less than 10 secs
According to manufacturer, Fan rated @ 4,100 CFM Dialled in my anemometer @ 1.7671, square feet (Area of a 18 Inch Circle) to get a true cfm reading and confirm 3900-4000 cfm. A negligible static pressure drop through the radiator.
First his numbers aren't accurate as he didn't accommodate for the hub size or measure the fan blade length. If I reverse math his 3900-4000cfm and 1.7671 sqft then that puts your 18" fan airflow at 2250ft/min. Now that I have that I can do the math correctly (3" hub is 0.04909 sqft) but your fan blade is NOT 18" as the housing is 18.11" on the OD, your fan blade is likely 17" or slightly less but I'll give you 17". The new correct math is 1.5763 sqft - 0.04909 sqft = 1.52721 sqft x 2250ft/min = 3,436 cfm. So on a dual 1" core radiator your pulling actually 600-700cfm less than your website numbers on his particular setup. BTW that Dewitts radiator is great quality $1400 radiator. If you compare the PAG 2250 ft/min vs the 3089 ft/min of the SPAL 18" your about 839 ft/min slower airflow (I would guess 8-10mph less) and 1,000 less CFM.
The above is a MAX out speed test so 100% (worst case scenaro). However at 50% the SPAL still outflows the PAG. The SPAL however is not maxed out and can continue to provide another 1000cfm more of flow if needed where has the PAG is tapped out. Most cars don't need more than 3000 actual CFM through the radiator to cool most setups. I mean my 5.3 V8 was able to maintain under 200*F with 2,000cfm with a 26" core (dual 1" rows).
Last edited by customblackbird; Aug 28, 2024 at 09:49 AM.
4 week turn around and I would likely have to get the controller.
I found this on my corvette forum, guy installed your 18" brushless fan on a dual row aluminum HP extra wide dewitts aftermarket radiator.
According to manufacturer, Fan draw is 26 amp @ 13vdc with Soft-Start. I can confirm I am drawing 28-30 amps and the soft start ramps up in less than 10 secs
According to manufacturer, Fan rated @ 4,100 CFM Dialled in my anemometer @ 1.7671, square feet (Area of a 18 Inch Circle) to get a true cfm reading and confirm 3900-4000 cfm. A negligible static pressure drop through the radiator.
First his numbers aren't accurate as he didn't accommodate for the hub size or measure the fan blade length. If I reverse math his 3900-4000cfm and 1.7671 sqft then that puts your 18" fan airflow at 2250ft/min. Now that I have that I can do the math correctly (3" hub is 0.04909 sqft) but your fan blade is NOT 18" as the housing is 18.11" on the OD, your fan blade is likely 17" or slightly less but I'll give you 17". The new correct math is 1.5763 sqft - 0.04909 sqft = 1.52721 sqft x 2250ft/min = 3,436 cfm. So on a dual 1" core radiator your pulling actually 600-700cfm less than your website numbers on his particular setup. BTW that Dewitts radiator is great quality $1400 radiator. If you compare the PAG 2250 ft/min vs the 3089 ft/min of the SPAL 18" your about 839 ft/min slower airflow (I would guess 8-10mph less) and 1,000 less CFM.
The above is a MAX out speed test so 100% (worst case scenaro). However at 50% the SPAL still outflows the PAG. The SPAL however is not maxed out and can continue to provide another 1000cfm more of flow if needed where has the PAG is tapped out. Most cars don't need more than 3000 actual CFM through the radiator to cool most setups. I mean my 5.3 V8 was able to maintain under 200*F with 2,000cfm with a 26" core (dual 1" rows).
There are alot of holes and assumptions here. Don't think your assumptions/numbers are accurate, also maybe best to keep the comparison 16" since all the fans you tested are 16" and to avoid confusion / apples and oranges. Also on the same core. I think that corvette had an AC condenser and installed infront of an engine (back pressure), something your tests don't include.
Using someone else's setup, measurments, different fan size, rad, condenser, installation, is not a good way to do a ccomparison. I agree with you, I think it will be best you test it on the same setup, your setup.
but if you want a more apples to apples, ie 16" fan on a core with shroud... well, here you go, also included a video:
So Delta PAG 16" fan moves 3,300cfm at 19amp 14v... what do the other 16" fans do?
There are alot of holes and assumptions here. Don't think your assumptions/numbers are accurate, also maybe best to keep the comparison 16" since all the fans you tested are 16" and to avoid confusion / apples and oranges. Also on the same core. I think that corvette had an AC condenser and installed infront of an engine (back pressure), something your tests don't include.
Using someone else's setup, measurments, different fan size, rad, condenser, installation, is not a good way to do a ccomparison. I agree with you, I think it will be best you test it on the same setup, your setup.
but if you want a more apples to apples, ie 16" fan on a core with shroud... well, here you go, also included a video:
So Delta PAG 16" fan moves 3,300cfm at 19amp 14v... what do the other 16" fans do?
I don't disagree, I don't like comparing to different setups. I've reached out to the guy to get more info. If you would like to prove your point then provide a video of the ft/min of your 16" fan on a standard dual 1" core rad, the actual fan blade DIA and hub DIA.
If you compared the SPAL 16" to your 18" PAG the SPAL 16" wins given the info I'm able to gather from that thread. Since your 16" performs worse than the 18" I don't see the point if your 18" numbers aren't already performing better.
Another thing to note is that in reality the SPAL 16" is a better choice than the PAG 18" when you look at the numbers. 5amps more on the SPAL 16" is negligible however look at the airflow to blade length and sqft/area of blade area. This means the SPAL 16" is more efficient than the PAG 18" given a 1" shorter blade and a smaller surface area (the spal 16" hub is 7" in DIA so more than double that of the PAG).
Some other good info is MIN and MAX fan speed, the PAG fans min speed rating it much higher than the SPAL. This would be better low speed/airflow speed control and the lower max fan Speed rating which means its pulling more AIR at a lower speed. I looked at the 1000w SPAL 18" and that thing spins even higher to 3400 rpms so I would love to see what that thing pulls.
I don't disagree, I don't like comparing to different setups. I've reached out to the guy to get more info. If you would like to prove your point then provide a video of the ft/min of your 16" fan on a standard dual 1" core rad, the actual fan blade DIA and hub DIA.
If you compared the SPAL 16" to your 18" PAG the SPAL 16" wins given the info I'm able to gather from that thread. Since your 16" performs worse than the 18" I don't see the point if your 18" numbers aren't already performing better.
Another thing to note is that in reality the SPAL 16" is a better choice than the PAG 18" when you look at the numbers. 5amps more on the SPAL 16" is negligible however look at the airflow to blade length and sqft/area of blade area. This means the SPAL 16" is more efficient than the PAG 18" given a 1" shorter blade and a smaller surface area (the spal 16" hub is 7" in DIA so more than double that of the PAG).
Some other good info is MIN and MAX fan speed, the PAG fans min speed rating it much higher than the SPAL. This would be better low speed/airflow speed control and the lower max fan Speed rating which means its pulling more AIR at a lower speed. I looked at the 1000w SPAL 18" and that thing spins even higher to 3400 rpms so I would love to see what that thing pulls.
Don't mix fan sizes and threads, you're adding variable and errors that we cannot reconcile. KISS
Clear your mind!
Delta PAG fans are about 25% to 30% more efficient. That's not debatable. Let's keep it all 16", everything 16". The whole point was to compare Proform, waveflex, spal & now deltapag. Did you test a 18" proform or 18" waveflex?
Ok, gotcha, I'll get the ft/min for the 16 along with exact blade/hub measurements. Good, let's also get exact blade and hub measurements for the other three fans. Then we'll have good apples to apples, except for the shroud depths for every fan, not having a shroud is not fair to the others.
Don't mix fan sizes and threads, you're adding variable and errors that we cannot reconcile. KISS
Clear your mind!
Delta PAG fans are about 25% to 30% more efficient. That's not debatable. Let's keep it all 16", everything 16". The whole point was to compare Proform, waveflex, spal & now deltapag. Did you test a 18" proform or 18" waveflex?
Ok, gotcha, I'll get the ft/min for the 16 along with exact blade/hub measurements. Good, let's also get exact blade and hub measurements for the other three fans. Then we'll have good apples to apples, except for the shroud depths for every fan, not having a shroud is not fair to the others.
No but your 18" was the only one I was able to find airflow numbers on from a customer and since I have a 18" SPAL why not directly compare the big boys? That info is still viable for the 18" as more and more people move that way anyway. I mean if you think about it even the small 4cyl cars like chevy Malibu's have a big 18" fan and 600w motor. A larger fan has to work less to achieve the same airflow, less work/speed means its also more quiet and more efficient. The biggest concern is your motor size, I get the reasoning behind it but you provide no wattage numbers which if we go by amps and compared against other brushless fan motors your looking at 350-400w.
That's easy. Measurements are to the leading edge of the blade (inside edge of the outer ring if equipped - not the outside edge of the ring). Not measuring the open hole of the outer mounting ring either, focused on the blade only.
Proform
Fan Blade = 15" DIA
Hub = 4.25" DIA
Flexwave
Fan Blade = 15.5" DIA
Hub = 4.5" DIA
SPAL 16"
Fan Blade = 16" DIA
Hub = 7" DIA
SPAL 18" (including so the info is just available for the masses)
Fan Blade = 18" DIA
Hub = 7.75" DIA
No but your 18" was the only one I was able to find airflow numbers on from a customer and since I have a 18" SPAL why not directly compare the big boys? That info is still viable for the 18" as more and more people move that way anyway. I mean if you think about it even the small 4cyl cars like chevy Malibu's have a big 18" fan and 600w motor. A larger fan has to work less to achieve the same airflow, less work/speed means its also more quiet and more efficient. The biggest concern is your motor size, I get the reasoning behind it but you provide no wattage numbers which if we go by amps and compared against other brushless fan motors your looking at 350-400w.
That's easy. Measurements are to the leading edge of the blade (inside edge of the outer ring if equipped - not the outside edge of the ring). Not measuring the open hole of the outer mounting ring either, focused on the blade only.
Proform
Fan Blade = 15" DIA
Hub = 4.25" DIA
Flexwave
Fan Blade = 15.5" DIA
Hub = 4.5" DIA
SPAL 16"
Fan Blade = 16" DIA
Hub = 7" DIA
SPAL 18" (including so the info is just available for the masses)
Fan Blade = 18" DIA
Hub = 7.75" DIA
I'll have the software guys increase the speed to match the 3,510cfm to see what amps it pulls there, it's not linear. We set the max speed at the tangent on the efficiency curve. In other words any additional cfm has a drop in efficiency. You can pull more cfm by spinning it faster but amp draw spikes, like you see in the spal brushless of 34amps.
Btw where did you video go regarding the flex wave ft/min and amps?
it feels like more air than it is I guess. You saw the video with the proform. I have the same anemometer and just plugging the numbers. I was surprised as well with the proform bc it seriously sounds wicked. If the proform was a real 15.5-16” it would be a good contender. What’s nice about the proform is that it’s dead simple to wire and work and seems to have great control with the eBay PWM generator. You coulf
slap this proform on and have a standard fan cheap controller send 12v to the PWM wire and bam you got soft start, ramp up and a decent air flow with hopefully increased longevity.
all for under $200. You could buy an extra fan and an extra pwm controller for less than one of other options.
I'll have the software guys increase the speed to match the 3,510cfm to see what amps it pulls there, it's not linear. We set the max speed at the tangent on the efficiency curve. In other words any additional cfm has a drop in efficiency. You can pull more cfm by spinning it faster but amp draw spikes, like you see in the spal brushless of 34amps.
Have a quick question for you, I would assume that your variable controller is just a standard PWM generator but what frequency and duty cycle does it use? Is the fan capable of using a negative PWM signal in addition to a positive one?
Also I understand you have it set for max speed at the max efficiency point, but for those of us who have the ability to generate our own PWM signal it would be nice to be able to kick it into overdrive so to speak to get that little bit of extra out of it even though current draw spikes.
Have a quick question for you, I would assume that your variable controller is just a standard PWM generator but what frequency and duty cycle does it use? Is the fan capable of using a negative PWM signal in addition to a positive one?
Also I understand you have it set for max speed at the max efficiency point, but for those of us who have the ability to generate our own PWM signal it would be nice to be able to kick it into overdrive so to speak to get that little bit of extra out of it even though current draw spikes.
That's not how our brushless technology works, also maybe why we're getting so much higher efficiency. Ok... our motor is a 3-phase AC PM soft-magnetic alloy motor. Our ECM module is a 3-phase sinusoidal inverter (from DC to AC) with variable frequency drive (vfd for speed control)
It's a bit more involved than simply PWMing, that's how we get soooo much power from only a 3" diameter motor. I know it seems like it, but it's not magic.
You dont need to run these faster. Please note that our fans cool +3000hp, +800cid race cars. If you need to run our fans faster to keep cool, there's something else wrong with your cooling system. On avg, DeltaPAG is about 50% better cooling & 30% less amperage.
https://youtube.com/shorts/PIr1buhkt...E4Sbej8wk6M_AO
I'll have the software guys increase the speed to match the 3,510cfm to see what amps it pulls there, it's not linear. We set the max speed at the tangent on the efficiency curve. In other words any additional cfm has a drop in efficiency. You can pull more cfm by spinning it faster but amp draw spikes, like you see in the spal brushless of 34amps.
Btw where did you video go regarding the flex wave ft/min and amps?
What are the fan blade and hub dimensions? EDIT: saw the picture on mobile. PAG 16" has 15.25" blade, 3" hub. 1.268 - 0.049 = 1.219 x 2640 = 3,219 CFM
I don't have a video of the flexalite on a radiator with shroud (just fan on rad). I can take one before I return it but I have photos of the flexalite on shroud on a rad core (just no video). I'm attaching those in an edit on my phone. That 16" fan only pulls 1692 ft/min but has a 15.5" blade and 4.5" Hub. 1.3104 - 0.11045 = 1.19995 x 1692 = 2,030 CFM
Amps are 14.56amps/191.1w
Last edited by customblackbird; Aug 30, 2024 at 02:03 PM.
all for under $200. You could buy an extra fan and an extra pwm controller for less than one of other options.
Yup, but you now need to figure out how to fit that much CFM in twice the area. two 16" is not as easy to package as a single 16" obviously. If the math is correct your kinda stuck at the 2,000 cfm mark with the proform and flexalite. stepping up to the spal or PAG would be a 55-70% increase in airflow. in about the same footprint but the SPAL would require a deep shroud. The PAG would better suite your application given your shroud design being closer to the rad and they have a surface mount if you can fit the depth of the fan itself which is 2 5/8" at the motor and about 2 1/4" at the edge. I don't think you can do a pusher and puller and gain airflow as the blades at a set speed can only move so much air. Your basically looking for the most power dense single you can get to fit your space. Now you had a single 16" and 12" next to each other right? If I had to guess you were prob hovering around the 3000cfm mark with both those fans on. But you also have a bigger restriction with the AC condenser.
Have a quick question for you, I would assume that your variable controller is just a standard PWM generator but what frequency and duty cycle does it use? Is the fan capable of using a negative PWM signal in addition to a positive one?
Also I understand you have it set for max speed at the max efficiency point, but for those of us who have the ability to generate our own PWM signal it would be nice to be able to kick it into overdrive so to speak to get that little bit of extra out of it even though current draw spikes.
the PWM is just telling what throttle position to run the motor and doesn't affect total output of the motor. PWM is basically the gas pedal and the motor is a motor. press the pedal 10% you get 10% of a 350hp motor, 90-100% gets you 90-100% of the 350hp motor. The controller is what controls the min and max speed the motor will turn. They can adjust the fan programming to adjust the min and max of the motor but you need to set that within the working perimeters of the motor construction, fan blade design and working conditions. They have optimized for there specific design parameters essentially.
PWM - and PWM + is just the "off" "on" cycling of the signal. Basically the wave form just switches from OFF 90% on 10% to 90% on and 10% off. reversing your duty cycle is really all thats needed. The spal 16" 500w is a PWM + fan and with a PWM + signal generator will be at slowest speed at 15% and 85% highest (pressing gas pedal alittle to alot). With a negative PWM signal (holley Term X) your 85% (inverted 15%) is slow speed and 15% is fast (inverted 85%).
What are the fan blade and hub dimensions? EDIT: saw the picture on mobile. PAG 16" has 15.25" blade, 3" hub. 1.268 - 0.049 = 1.219 x 2640 = 3,219 CFM
I don't have a video of the flexalite on a radiator with shroud (just fan on rad). I can take one before I return it but I have photos of the flexalite on shroud on a rad core (just no video). I'm attaching those in an edit on my phone. That 16" fan only pulls 1692 ft/min but has a 15.5" blade and 4.5" Hub. 1.3104 - 0.11045 = 1.19995 x 1692 = 2,030 CFM
Amps are 14.56amps/191.1w
14.56amps!? I need to adjust my SS. See picture, this is very good data, would be better if we can make them all on the same thickness shroud, that would be really apples to apples. Also, I don't get it! How is a brushed motor fan more efficient than a brushless fan!? That doesn't make sense. See below:
That's not how our brushless technology works, also maybe why we're getting so much higher efficiency. Ok... our motor is a 3-phase AC PM soft-magnetic alloy motor. Our ECM module is a 3-phase sinusoidal inverter (from DC to AC) with variable frequency drive (vfd for speed control)
It's a bit more involved than simply PWMing, that's how we get soooo much power from only a 3" diameter motor. I know it seems like it, but it's not magic.
You dont need to run these faster. Please note that our fans cool +3000hp, +800cid race cars. If you need to run our fans faster to keep cool, there's something else wrong with your cooling system. On avg, DeltaPAG is about 50% better cooling & 30% less amperage.
Well if we were to look at this logically. I see a few things I could point out.
3000hp BB cars don't run for very long and some don't even really need cooling systems. Radiators and fans can be undersized substantially on a race car. Also what fuel are they burning? Alcohol motors don't get as hot just like e85 acts like an intercooler. Most drag cars will hit the water box at 160, stage and at the end of a run get to 170*F and shut down.
You said "fans" and not fan. Sounds like your talking about multiple fans to net your claims. Most cars don't have much over 27.5" cores so you can't run dual anything over 12-14" and have overlap. Now trucks and some older vehicles can fit bigger cores where dual 16" is possible.
The math actually proves the opposite of your statement. The PAG 16" has a larger usable surface area of 1.219 sqft and your pulling 3,219 CFM which we know is 2640 ft/min. The SPAL even tho larger overall DIA pulls 3109 ft/min at a smaller 1.129 sqft usual area. So the SPAL is more efficient at moving more air and doing so through a smaller area. If you took the fan blade design and used it at the same specs/useable area as the SPAL (Apples to apples) you would only flow 2,980 CFM. So your fan is less efficient than the spal in direct airflow measurements. We aren't talking about amps, just airflow. A given space flowing a specific amount of air. The same would go for SPAL if it used the PAG airflow area of 1.219 at 3109ft/min the spal jumps to 3790 CFM!
Your Amp efficiency is impressive for flow the fan produces and I will give credit where its due. In a setup where max CFM per amp is required you would probably come out ahead but in todays world OEM cars come with 170+ amp alternators and electricity/amps aren't really an issue. Also your ft/min or CFM would be reached sooner with the SPAL so the 34 amps is not an accurate comparison to the PAG fan. The actual amperage of the SPAL 16" would be around 27amps to equal the same CFM flow as the PAG... PAG is still 7 amps ahead. I actually want to test this so I will. I have numbers (small gauge wire tests so they are at reduced power) but the SPAL 16" needs about 2800 ft/min to equal the PAGs 3200 CFM. I'm confident that will be about 27ish amps.
I know your efficiencies come from the AC 3 phase motor and your long sweeping blades reduce load on the motor and noise at the higher RPMS. DC motors have lower efficiency but high controllability and starting torque. AC motors have higher efficiency but lower controllability and starting torque. This is why your MIN fan speeds are higher than the SPAL as well as have a higher MAX fan speed. So your start up speed is higher bc of the controllability and reduced TQ. Your Max speed is higher and more efficient as the speed increases and yet the max flow is still lower. Which means the SPAL is more efficient at pulling more air not only through a smaller area but also at a lower max fan speed. I know your design parameters are give and take for a range of efficiency. I don't think its a bad product at all but I also see it focused on efficiency in an area that doesn't apply anymore which is amperage. I would say increase the motor size even to 4" and increase the flan blade width/pitch to pick up some CFM. 35amps is not alot for fans these days. As you know the OEMs are using 6 gauge 70+amp fans. The days of sub 70s cars with 60 amp alternators are a dying breed with all the popular engine swaps and aftermarket alternator availability for high output charging I don't see this as being much of an issue now.
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