What is the max power capability of the Magnuson 2650? I'm talking max repeatable rwhp through an auto trans with a well working combination on ethanol?

thank you!

 

There are so many variables to this it's almost impossible to give any sort of accurate answer but I'll try....
Auto trans with lockup or not locked up? What trans? Lower compression engine or a higher compression? Solid roller or hydraulic? What type of dyno? Internet bullshit numbers from a hub dyno to sell parts/tunes or actual rwhp on a non-user configurable dyno (Dynojet)?

 

I was thinking max potential on a cathedral port 10.5 to 1 compression on e85. Assuming everything about the combo was well matched and realistic dyno numbers. I don't know enough about the different types of dynos and how they can be manipulated to say which dyno.

So lets say 10.5 to 1 compression
Good cathedral port heads
Custom cam
hydraulic roller
4l80 trans
3.46 gear
headers no cats 3" catback
388 cubic inch motor
On the dyno you consider to give the most realistic numbers.

Can it make F1a-94 peak numbers in an equal combo while obviously making much more power at lower rpms?

 

Never seen someone work so hard at not going turbo lol.

 

They don't make a cathedral port version of the 2650, at least I've never seen one. I guess you could try the adapters people use to put LSA blowers on LS1s though. I would say locked through a 4L80 on a standard dynojet you are probably done around 1050 rwhp with that combo.
As far as comparing it to an F1A-94 it's certainly going to have more area under the curve, but the F1A-94 is capable of making more peak power.

 

LOL. I'm considering all options for the next combo even a turbo. At this point I'm honestly leaning heavily towards the new F1r-103 procharger, but I like the idea of having a roots blower although I'd prefer twin screw over roots if one could reliably make 1200 rwhp without needing a bunch of custom parts. In other words I would only consider a roots or twin screw if there was a kit for my car. Procharger obviously has a kit for my car that I already have and the bigger head unit bolts right up although it wouldn't be without issues with the stock kit.

With the turbo I don't think there is a reliable kit for the GTO that makes 1200 rwhp. There are kits but there seem to be lots of issues.

If none of the other options can reliably make 1200 rwhp while still being streetable or if I have to do a bunch of fabrication or one-off parts anyway then turbo may be the way to go.

So yes, Turbo is lower on my list of considerations, but we do know it can easily make 1200+ while being streetable if none of the other options I prefer can get me there.

...and I do admit I know less about turbos. I've had a really fast highly modified turbo buick back in the 90's but my brother built that car. I bought it from him ready to go. I ended up hurting that motor and due to lack of knowledge I picked up a 350 rocket oldsmobile motor and put good heads, intake, carb, exhaust, and ignition on it. It was very fun to me but actually slower than the turbo 6 cylinder.

 

Good to know. I saw a kit boost district makes with the 2650 for the GTO but I didn't read into it. It may require adapters or ls3 heads as you state. So, for drag racing the F1a-94 may be better than the 2650 unless you can actually hook up all that low end then you would be faster on the front half possibly running a lower ET with a lower mph. The procharger would most likely be easier to manage at those power levels getting down the track since it is more linear.

 

@NicD What are your opinions on this updated huron speed GTO twin turbo kit with upgraded oilless 6266 turbos? I think your shop may have even installed one of these kits on a GTO but I think it was the earlier version?

https://www.huronspeed.com/products/gto-twin-turbo-kit

 

Hmm, not too sure. We either did one of the earlier kits back in the day or maybe I'm thinking of a Gen5 Camaro. Couple of things I really don't like on that kit, really not a fan of oil less turbos and the comp turbos they are using generally have old design turbines which are pretty restrictive. On top of that the kit looks like it's built around internally gated turbos but then one of the pictures shows external wastegates so I'm confused. If it does use internally gated turbos then that is another big limitation. I do like that they are using heat shielding now on their kits.

 

I dunno, huge low-end torque, heavy car, 275/60/15 tire, seems like a recipe for aggravation at the track.
Seems like sticking with the Procharger which you're already very familiar with would be the way to go.
Listening to Ryan Mitchell talk about how much more manageable the power is with the Procharger than his turbo combo says a lot.

 

Im on a bunch of the LSA pages and everyone says to avoid Boost District. A lot of complaints about wrong parts, missing parts, no parts..

 

Boost management is always a huge factor on a turbo setup and a lot depends on how much control you have and how technical you can get with it. A procharger is stupid simple when it comes to power management, it's literally just Engine RPM/Boost and timing retards down low and the boost does what it does so you are literally just making quick easy changes to timing retards for the most part. Turbos have response curves everywhere like spool time, WOT off of the brake, lifting and getting back into it, etc and it's a HUGE variable that you have some control over. Some computers have a lot better control over that than others do and the actual tuning is up to the user so those are also big variables. From a tuning and setup standpoint a procharger is by far the easier way to go. Personally for a street/strip car though I would still go turbo just so I have a lot more control over power delivery, etc because I want all of the power variability.

 

Haven't been on Facetube in a while but I want to say they were the go to place for anything LSA related.

Have seen a lot of adapters for Cathedral to Squareport for LSA style blowers but have always seemed to be lacking on the numbers I would expect when bolted on to something that was square headed. If I had to guess something with turbulance/airflow is messing with things but hard to say.

Done a bit of digging on the power of what a 2650 could do and from what I have seen, it could do 1200whp, but is a max effort build. Lot of run of the mill builds will hit the 1k mark, but these are on 6.0/6.2 motors, typically stroked. Have considered one for my G8 but something I run on street tires pretty much exclusively already doing 700whp it's a bear to drive and hits arrest me speeds fast enough, I give up on the idea decently quick as fun as it would be when/if I could get it to hook.

The big factor I would warn you about is the heat of something like that - it would obviously need pullied down to the smallest style pulley I expect and with that comes a bunch of heat. If running AC then could run an interchiller style setup and it does help tremendously with IAT being manageable. Going to be the same battle/story with any sort of boost but with a blower you drop it right onto the engine so cooling everything around it becomes the real game. Had a guy with a ZR1 that was a max effort build he bought and in peeling back some electrical tape on random wires found evidence of what seemed to be melted wire sheathing. Explained why the last guy did it I guess?

If shooting for the 1200 mark I think the F1 or a Turbo honestly going to be your best options. Just my 0.02.

 

2650's make 1000-1100whp all day on gen 5 LT stuff with 18psi and ethanol for fuel. It's a very efficient blower...Smooth boost offers boost control for the PD stuff now as well so you can have full control over the bypass valve.

 

I see a lot of YouTube dyno videos in that power range but unfortunately I’m a poor lol. The old 2004 GTO has a gen 4 (ls3 block) with cathedral port top end so most likely way less efficient than the newer direct port stuff.

 

I hate to play into sunk cost fallacies, but in your case the sunk cost is very real. You would have to redo so much of your build to switch to turbos you would be hating yourself for most of the needed downtime and that is before all the little issues that would need to be fixed. Underhood heat management with twins is a pain as well. I ended up cutting my hood for vents just to help keep from baking everything. And as for the oilless turbos, have you seen anyone really using those outside of dyno runs and car shows?

 

I'm constantly told on here under hood heat is not an issue with turbos it's free power.

In all seriousness I thought that was why they put the turbos down low by the trans...to solve under hood heat issues? As far as the oil less turbos I haven't heard a single good thing about them in my research, but I have no experience and don't know anyone personally who has used them. I do know people have oil issues with the regular turbos on both this kit and the old APS twin kits so I'm guessing huron went oil less out of necessity due to the location of the turbos?

 

The APS style kits would eliminate a lot of heat issues, but then you have to use a return pump for the oil. As a former rear mount turbo user, I know exactly what happens when the return pump quits working for whatever reason. I am sure this is why some people buy into the oilless turbos. I just can't help but think that if they worked worth a crap there would be widespread usage, considering that they eliminate the danger of an extra high pressure oil feed over hot exhaust as well as eliminating the return problem.

 

Looking at all the options, I would probably stay Procharger, and I really don't even like them. The torque on any of the PD blowers is going to either break **** or have massive traction issues. The most I have seen in whp PD apps consistently is around 1100hp. Mind you, the torque is radically different and better. You are already set for the Procharger, I would just maximize what you have. Tell you what, though. You need to be honest with yourself about power level. The ****** is right, if you want massive power it's either turbo or a monster screw blower. FYI, Gametech is right, the heat is a thing. I work on a variety of cars and turbo street cars cook everything under the hood.

 

Ok, so currently I'm fully aware that my current engine combo isn't very efficient and my F1a-94 based upon trap speed isn't making the power that I've seen them make on plenty of youtube dyno videos. Even if you take those dyno numbers with a grain of salt it seems like I've got room for improvement as it sits right now.

Engine is a TSP built short block LS3 block with forged rods/pistons. Cam motion custom cam which is very close to one of their shelf cams for a centri. Intake is a btr equalizer, stock 241 heads untouched with .660 btr springs, stock throttle body, ls7 lifters, 1 3/4 primary headers into 3" collectors into dual 2.5" magnaflow catback. Exhaust is very quiet until you get on it which I do like for a car that drives around town without grabbing a bunch of attention, but I think it's time to go 3" catback.

No signs of belt slip, no dust, and boost consistently climbs all the way to the shift point at 7300 rpm.

The procharger inlet sits facing backwards on these cars not towards the front of the car and it's a crowded area possibly restricting airflow. I run with a blower guard on it and cannot fit a bell mouth on it. I would possibly need to move the coolant overflow and cut out a section of the inner fender on the drivers side to increase airflow to the blower inlet by creating more space around it.

I would consider changing head units to the new F1r-103 when it comes out later this year as it is said to move more cfm than an F1x but is much smaller only slightly larger than an f1a-94 that I currently have.

I'm on 50% ethanol and methanol injection with a size 9 nozzle coming on at 5 psi. I'm running 50 percent water/meth.

Peak timing is 19 degrees and plugs show I could easily add 1 degree of timing but for a car that I play with on the street a lot I don't want to push it to the edge on timing.

The easiest change right now would be the 3" catback.

Heads are obviously a restriction also but with the blower already being spun beyond max impeller speed I'm likely to lose boost also switching heads and don't have room to add it back by spinning the blower higher.

Just not sure how much more I can get out of the current combo or where my best opportunity with gains are with it.