very, very nice turbo setup on camaro
Originally Posted by Wildman
BAD2000SS Made a couple of assumptions that are incorrect.
This kit will do all the 10 things I posted before. With a good tune, it will pass emissions.
He commented on tuning it rich will fail emmissions. So the 3000gts fail Cali emmissions? How about the SRT4's? 2003 Cobra's??? Sorry that does not hold water.
Second all of those motors were specifically designed for use with forced induction. The compression ratio on all three motors is no where close to 10.2:1 like the LS1. All of those motors are probably in the 8.5:1 range. Obviously the lower compression motor is less apt to detonation problems with pump gas. The motors in the cars mentioned are also fine tuned from the factory. Comparing a car designed specifically for forced induction to the LS1 is comparing apples to oranges.
I do not doubt that this kit makes horsepower. I just doubt the final install and tuning that needs to be done would be AS EASY as everyone claims. Again, I commend STS for trying something new. If they plan to market the kit for a quick 100rwhp they are on the right track.
It surprises me that a few in this thread has said that 500rwhp is not that hard to attain. 500rwhp out of that kit would require a lot more time and a lot more money than others in this thread have led some to believe. 415rwhp is about as much horsepower as you could get out of this kit and remain street legal, continue using pump gas, and be able to pass a smog test.
Launching!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 295
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From: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by 1point3liter
In addtion, thanks for taking a blow at my "slow" ET.
At any rate, I digress...back on topic, and please, don't be offended by my remark about your ET, as it was not intended to be offensive. My appologies.
Bad200ss, I do believe this kit is entirely capable of producing upwards of 500 hp without the significant cost above initial purchase that you imply. I agree, that there WILL be an additional cost related to an alkie injection that IMO would be absolutely necessary to attain at or near 500 hp levels, but it's not a significant increase in cost or work.
Originally Posted by Clipper
Bad200ss, I do believe this kit is entirely capable of producing upwards of 500 hp without the significant cost above initial purchase that you imply. I agree, that there WILL be an additional cost related to an alkie injection that IMO would be absolutely necessary to attain at or near 500 hp levels, but it's not a significant increase in cost or work.
Fuel injector and fuel pump installs are not something that a novice mechanic could get done easily. If you weren't running colder spark plugs with the initial kit, you would deffinatly need them now. I guess the point i'm trying to make is, there is a lot more than meets the eye.
Launching!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 295
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From: Colorado Springs
Youre points are well taken, and I stand corrected regarding the fuel system upgrades. Injectors and pump would be required IMO to stay reliable, I simply neglected to even consider it! Kind of strange as I just did new injectors and pump this weekend. lol.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 715
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From: Houston
I'm just curious where I can get a H/C system installed and putting out 450rwhp for $4000???
Last time I checked around, a stage 2 H/C setup was at least $5000 installed and I was quoted $7000 by one of the "bigger" shops.
Also, 5psi is 5psi regardless of efficiency. It is true that you won't be able to get the same numbers from a rearmount that you can from the SAME turbo mounted up front, but who cares? As long as the turbo is sized properly you can get whatever boost you want (within reason).
Lastly, with an STS or any other turbo kit, you won't have to worry about drilling your throttle plate or stalling at idle because your cam is too big. You will just get power, driveability, and better mpg.
I'd love to do an STS kit, or preferably, a DIY setup that clones the STS, but it won't pass the WAF test
Russell
Last time I checked around, a stage 2 H/C setup was at least $5000 installed and I was quoted $7000 by one of the "bigger" shops.
Also, 5psi is 5psi regardless of efficiency. It is true that you won't be able to get the same numbers from a rearmount that you can from the SAME turbo mounted up front, but who cares? As long as the turbo is sized properly you can get whatever boost you want (within reason).
Lastly, with an STS or any other turbo kit, you won't have to worry about drilling your throttle plate or stalling at idle because your cam is too big. You will just get power, driveability, and better mpg.
I'd love to do an STS kit, or preferably, a DIY setup that clones the STS, but it won't pass the WAF test
Russell
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 404
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by Clipper
I didn't mean it as a "shot" at your ET. Frankly, I think an 11.7 is pretty respectable for an RX7, but you brought up the fact that "fast" is relative, and were directly relating "fast" with hp. HP is indirectly related to fast in my world. But then again, I don't consider 11s fast. Quick? yes. Fast? no.
At any rate, I digress...back on topic, and please, don't be offended by my remark about your ET, as it was not intended to be offensive. My appologies.
At any rate, I digress...back on topic, and please, don't be offended by my remark about your ET, as it was not intended to be offensive. My appologies.
11's aren't all that; be it in a rx-7 or a fbody. My car ran 11's with the 2 rotor and stock twins. Hell my car ran 11's on street tires with just a mild cam and no bottle.
How many of these 450rwhp 3500lb cars trap over low 120's in the 1/4 mile. ET is determined by how well a car 60 foots. My et was wasn't attained with et streets or et drags. I just drove it to the track to see what kind of mph it would post before I tuned it.
A friend of mine here in town has a lt1 camaro that made a 13 second @ 135mph. He had the numbers from that pass in his sig for awhile. Are 13's impressive? nope... but the mph is decent. It was a joke. ha ha funny funny.
What I meant by the comment about 450rwhp not being all that fast in an fbody is the fact that they are so heavy. For the car to be quick imo, it obviously needs more power than a lighter car.
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by ws6-speed
I'm just curious where I can get a H/C system installed and putting out 450rwhp for $4000???
Last time I checked around, a stage 2 H/C setup was at least $5000 installed and I was quoted $7000 by one of the "bigger" shops.
Last time I checked around, a stage 2 H/C setup was at least $5000 installed and I was quoted $7000 by one of the "bigger" shops.
Also, 5psi is 5psi regardless of efficiency. It is true that you won't be able to get the same numbers from a rearmount that you can from the SAME turbo mounted up front, but who cares? As long as the turbo is sized properly you can get whatever boost you want (within reason).
Lastly, with an STS or any other turbo kit, you won't have to worry about drilling your throttle plate or stalling at idle because your cam is too big. You will just get power, driveability, and better mpg.
I'd love to do an STS kit, or preferably, a DIY setup that clones the STS, but it won't pass the WAF test
Russell
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 729
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From: Bakersfield, Ca.
added items to the list
Originally Posted by bad2000ss
First off, all three of those motors don't have near the displacement of the LS1, therefore wouldn't put out even close to the emmissions that the LS1 does. The smaller displacement motors can afford to be a little on the rich side.
Second all of those motors were specifically designed for use with forced induction. The compression ratio on all three motors is no where close to 10.2:1 like the LS1. All of those motors are probably in the 8.5:1 range. Obviously the lower compression motor is less apt to detonation problems with pump gas. The motors in the cars mentioned are also fine tuned from the factory. Comparing a car designed specifically for forced induction to the LS1 is comparing apples to oranges.
I do not doubt that this kit makes horsepower. I just doubt the final install and tuning that needs to be done would be AS EASY as everyone claims. Again, I commend STS for trying something new. If they plan to market the kit for a quick 100rwhp they are on the right track.
It surprises me that a few in this thread has said that 500rwhp is not that hard to attain. 500rwhp out of that kit would require a lot more time and a lot more money than others in this thread have led some to believe. 415rwhp is about as much horsepower as you could get out of this kit and remain street legal, continue using pump gas, and be able to pass a smog test.
Second all of those motors were specifically designed for use with forced induction. The compression ratio on all three motors is no where close to 10.2:1 like the LS1. All of those motors are probably in the 8.5:1 range. Obviously the lower compression motor is less apt to detonation problems with pump gas. The motors in the cars mentioned are also fine tuned from the factory. Comparing a car designed specifically for forced induction to the LS1 is comparing apples to oranges.
I do not doubt that this kit makes horsepower. I just doubt the final install and tuning that needs to be done would be AS EASY as everyone claims. Again, I commend STS for trying something new. If they plan to market the kit for a quick 100rwhp they are on the right track.
It surprises me that a few in this thread has said that 500rwhp is not that hard to attain. 500rwhp out of that kit would require a lot more time and a lot more money than others in this thread have led some to believe. 415rwhp is about as much horsepower as you could get out of this kit and remain street legal, continue using pump gas, and be able to pass a smog test.
Maybe I am coming about this in the wrong direction.
I concede that:
1) It is not the most efficient turbo system out there.
2) With the same amount of money, you have other choices available to you that can produce more horsepower.
3) There is a limit to how much boost you can apply before it will cost more money (but that is inherent to any F/I)
4) I do not believe that Drag Racing was in mind when this kit was conceived, but it COULD be made to adapt.
5) Hangs low - but only under the axle... where your tires are (i.e. You would have to bury your wheels into the well before you hit the turbo or intake pipe OR straddle something in the road like a HUGE rock)
? anything I might have missed?
BUT it will fit the following: (list has been changed to cede the items above)
1)Street legal
2)Pass emissions
3)Make 400+ hp
4)Streetable, decent street and highway manors
5)Doesn't require tearing down the engine (which is not as easy or fast as some would have you believe)
6)Takes very little talent and time to install
7)Upgradeable- can be made to make more than 500+ but will cost extra $$$ and invalidate 1,2,4,5,6,9,10 and 11 (about the whole list
)8)Doesn't cost $5000 or more like other F/I kits... (which also suffer if you go above 5psi)
9)Minimal tool set required
10)Runs on pump gas
11)Make better gas mileage than stock or H/C
12)Takes up no interior space - this is in reference to Nitrous
13)Is always on - Nitrous
14)Nothing to refill - Nitrous
****EDIT**** added things that I forgot
? Did I miss anything ?
Now, does this sound better?
Paul
Last edited by Wildman; Sep 2, 2004 at 02:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by 1point3liter
I don't think you get it. ET really has nothing to do with how "fast" or "quick" a car is. A car's mph show's how it will hold up on the street. IMO, a 130mph+ car is respectable... especially for a stock motor with a cam and some bottle.
11's aren't all that; be it in a rx-7 or a fbody. My car ran 11's with the 2 rotor and stock twins. Hell my car ran 11's on street tires with just a mild cam and no bottle.
How many of these 450rwhp 3500lb cars trap over low 120's in the 1/4 mile. ET is determined by how well a car 60 foots. My et was wasn't attained with et streets or et drags. I just drove it to the track to see what kind of mph it would post before I tuned it.
A friend of mine here in town has a lt1 camaro that made a 13 second @ 135mph. He had the numbers from that pass in his sig for awhile. Are 13's impressive? nope... but the mph is decent. It was a joke. ha ha funny funny.
What I meant by the comment about 450rwhp not being all that fast in an fbody is the fact that they are so heavy. For the car to be quick imo, it obviously needs more power than a lighter car.
11's aren't all that; be it in a rx-7 or a fbody. My car ran 11's with the 2 rotor and stock twins. Hell my car ran 11's on street tires with just a mild cam and no bottle.
How many of these 450rwhp 3500lb cars trap over low 120's in the 1/4 mile. ET is determined by how well a car 60 foots. My et was wasn't attained with et streets or et drags. I just drove it to the track to see what kind of mph it would post before I tuned it.
A friend of mine here in town has a lt1 camaro that made a 13 second @ 135mph. He had the numbers from that pass in his sig for awhile. Are 13's impressive? nope... but the mph is decent. It was a joke. ha ha funny funny.
What I meant by the comment about 450rwhp not being all that fast in an fbody is the fact that they are so heavy. For the car to be quick imo, it obviously needs more power than a lighter car.
A "fast" car doesn't always mean a "quick" car. I can get my truck going pretty damn fast down a 3 mile hill with a 30mph tail wind. The car that can get from point A to point B in the lowest elapsed time, is the "quicker" car, reguardless of mph.
I hear these Toyota Supra enthusiasts flapping their gums about how FAST their car is. How does the old saying go? "What does a 600hp Supra and a 900hp Supra have in common? 12 second time slips." The cars are fast, just not very quick.
Launching!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Anyone who pays $5000 for a H/C setup is simply out of their mind. Now, if you were going to mill your heads out of a block of aluminum, have them hand ported, then gold plated with diamond studded valve covers, then fine, that's explainable. $7000 quote from a "bigger" shop? Maybe they're so big they can charge 500/hr for labor, and put every man in the shop on it for 12 hours. For $7k, those heads and cam better come with a forged short block.
And as 1point3liter said, where the hell did the price of cam and heads come into this anyway?
And as 1point3liter said, where the hell did the price of cam and heads come into this anyway?
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Bakersfield, Ca.
Originally Posted by bad2000ss
In order to run 8-9psi new fuel injectors and a fuel pump would be needed. There is another $500 at least. Water/Alcohol injection will run another $300. Would the turbo equiped with the 5psi kit be able to produce that much more horsepower, or will an new turbo be required? You would deffinately need a dyno tune adding another $500.
Fuel injector and fuel pump installs are not something that a novice mechanic could get done easily. If you weren't running colder spark plugs with the initial kit, you would deffinatly need them now. I guess the point i'm trying to make is, there is a lot more than meets the eye.
Fuel injector and fuel pump installs are not something that a novice mechanic could get done easily. If you weren't running colder spark plugs with the initial kit, you would deffinatly need them now. I guess the point i'm trying to make is, there is a lot more than meets the eye.
to all the fuel requirements.. simply agree, to make it reliable. Other F/I systems have to do the same thing.And to answer your question, No you do not NEED to go with a bigger Turbo, you could spool these up to what ever you want, within reason. You could crank it up to 25psi... Not sure how efficient it would be.. But that goes with any turbo... you have to size it for YOUR application.
Something I forgot... technically you know you could put this on ANY vehicle? Just need the ground clearance, right size tubing, right size turbo, and tuning... and there you go... But on that matter... you could just put it on a bottle
: TECH Enthusiast
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From: Bakersfield, Ca.
Something else I neglected to mention... I am nowhere near street legal. I do have Stage II heads and a mild turbo friendly cam, Alky kit, and the fuel systems required to go to 700hp. But I do not have the bottom end to handle it nor the tranny, nor the rearend. YOU BET I would crank that thing up to 15~20 psi if I could to see what it would do. Check out my MODS link.
I need another $8000 for that... anyone care to donate?
I need another $8000 for that... anyone care to donate?
TECH Regular
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 404
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by bad2000ss
MPH doesn't win drag races, E/T does.
A "fast" car doesn't always mean a "quick" car. I can get my truck going pretty damn fast down a 3 mile hill with a 30mph tail wind. The car that can get from point A to point B in the lowest elapsed time, is the "quicker" car, reguardless of mph.
I hear these Toyota Supra enthusiasts flapping their gums about how FAST their car is. How does the old saying go? "What does a 600hp Supra and a 900hp Supra have in common? 12 second time slips." The cars are fast, just not very quick.
A "fast" car doesn't always mean a "quick" car. I can get my truck going pretty damn fast down a 3 mile hill with a 30mph tail wind. The car that can get from point A to point B in the lowest elapsed time, is the "quicker" car, reguardless of mph.
I hear these Toyota Supra enthusiasts flapping their gums about how FAST their car is. How does the old saying go? "What does a 600hp Supra and a 900hp Supra have in common? 12 second time slips." The cars are fast, just not very quick.
I'm not claiming my car is the fastest thing on the planet. I just said a heavy 450rwhp fbody doesn't impress me.
I'm not going to get into a huge debate about MY car since it has nothing to do with this thread, but here's a summary for you since you feel you are king dick.
What ET is in my sig means nothing. Ignorance is bliss. My car will hook with tires. Racing from point A to point B doesn't always start from a stop. My car will hook with tires. My car is not a supra or a slow truck. MPH typically wins races on the street. My car hooks as well or better than a fbody (both with stock suspension). My car will hook with tires. I don't need a 30mph tail wind to beat your truck. Thank you drive thru.
all in fun of course.
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by Wildman
Something else I neglected to mention... I am nowhere near street legal. I do have Stage II heads and a mild turbo friendly cam, Alky kit, and the fuel systems required to go to 700hp. But I do not have the bottom end to handle it nor the tranny, nor the rearend. YOU BET I would crank that thing up to 15~20 psi if I could to see what it would do. Check out my MODS link.
I need another $8000 for that... anyone care to donate?
I need another $8000 for that... anyone care to donate?
TECH Regular
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by Clipper
Anyone who pays $5000 for a H/C setup is simply out of their mind. Now, if you were going to mill your heads out of a block of aluminum, have them hand ported, then gold plated with diamond studded valve covers, then fine, that's explainable. $7000 quote from a "bigger" shop? Maybe they're so big they can charge 500/hr for labor, and put every man in the shop on it for 12 hours. For $7k, those heads and cam better come with a forged short block.
And as 1point3liter said, where the hell did the price of cam and heads come into this anyway?
And as 1point3liter said, where the hell did the price of cam and heads come into this anyway?
lmao.. I completely agree. Those prices are rediculous. Especially with the prices Patriot offers stage II heads for now. It's not that hard to do a head/cam swap. Well... I guess it is a bit more of a pain in your cars, but still... it's easily able to be done in a day (weekend at the longest).
Originally Posted by 1point3liter
ohh my.. I'm really not ever sure I want to even get into this anymore. The lstards on here are almost as bad as the rotards on the rx7 forum.
I'm not claiming my car is the fastest thing on the planet. I just said a heavy 450rwhp fbody doesn't impress me.
I'm not going to get into a huge debate about MY car since it has nothing to do with this thread, but here's a summary for you since you feel you are king dick.
What ET is in my sig means nothing. Ignorance is bliss. My car will hook with tires. Racing from point A to point B doesn't always start from a stop. My car will hook with tires. My car is not a supra or a slow truck. MPH typically wins races on the street. My car hooks as well or better than a fbody (both with stock suspension). My car will hook with tires. I don't need a 30mph tail wind to beat your truck. Thank you drive thru.
all in fun of course.
I'm not claiming my car is the fastest thing on the planet. I just said a heavy 450rwhp fbody doesn't impress me.
I'm not going to get into a huge debate about MY car since it has nothing to do with this thread, but here's a summary for you since you feel you are king dick.
What ET is in my sig means nothing. Ignorance is bliss. My car will hook with tires. Racing from point A to point B doesn't always start from a stop. My car will hook with tires. My car is not a supra or a slow truck. MPH typically wins races on the street. My car hooks as well or better than a fbody (both with stock suspension). My car will hook with tires. I don't need a 30mph tail wind to beat your truck. Thank you drive thru.
all in fun of course.
Hell, i've been outrun by gopeds in my truck, but I can still get it going 130mph. My point is fast and quick are two very different terms. 
Originally Posted by bad2000ss
MPH doesn't win drag races, E/T does.
I hear these Toyota Supra enthusiasts flapping their gums about how FAST their car is. How does the old saying go? "What does a 600hp Supra and a 900hp Supra have in common? 12 second time slips." The cars are fast, just not very quick.
I hear these Toyota Supra enthusiasts flapping their gums about how FAST their car is. How does the old saying go? "What does a 600hp Supra and a 900hp Supra have in common? 12 second time slips." The cars are fast, just not very quick.
True enough but how often are you on the track versus the street?. This is why the 600-800hp supras are highway monsters. And I pretty much assure you that if you run a 11.5@125 and i run a 12.5@140 on the street Im going to own you from a roll.
Originally Posted by MEAN LT1
True enough but how often are you on the track versus the street?. This is why the 600-800hp supras are highway monsters. And I pretty much assure you that if you run a 11.5@125 and i run a 12.5@140 on the street Im going to own you from a roll.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 715
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From: Houston
And as 1point3liter said, where the hell did the price of cam and heads come into this anyway?
When I looked at doing an stage II H/C install I was told $7000 for everything installed plus tune by one shop, then told $5000 for everything installed plus tune by another shop.
The price of installing an STS kit is $300. So, with the kit and install you're looking at $4000.
I haven't been on top of H/C pricing in the last year or so, but someone please point me to a H/C setup that is installed for $4000 that can make 450RWHP (would also be great if it could be a daily driver). I love the sound of a H/C car, but I also love the daily driveability of the STS kit. If they were the same price and made the same power, it would be a toss up for me (assuming the H/C kit was suitable for a daily driver).
Russell
PS, Bryan, what does teh sux0r mean? Not being an ***, I just don't know the shorthand.