My Turbo Truck is slow... help!
02-27-2006, 12:39 PM
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My Turbo Truck is slow... help! Hi Folks,
First of all, before I go to far... I am a transmission shop owner in Tampa FL and not much of a tuner so please forgive me for my ignorance!
Anyhow, after reading much about the blue Chevy truck that Parish has, I decided I wanted something similar. So I copied some of his stuff with less than favorable results. The truck has only been together for a week or so and I need to work out a ton of bugs. I just don't know which way to go on some of them. I'd like to first detail my setup.
Chevy Bowtie Sportsman block (383 cubes)
Callies Dragonslayer crank
Callies Compstar rods
JE forged pistons 8.5:1 CR (31cc dish)
Comp Cams turbo grind from C-Motorsports .561/.561 224/227 114 LSA
All ARP stud fasteners
SCE Titan ICS head gaskets
Dart Pro-1 Heads. 215cc runners 64cc chambers 2.05/1.6 valves Ported.
Accel Intake. (Looks like a Victor intake with injector bungs.)
Precision Turbo Elbow
Accufab 90mm throttle body
Siemens 83 lb/hr injectors
Aeromotive A1000 Fuel pump
Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator 45 psi
Dash 8 lines in, dash 6 lines out.
Turbonetics T-76 Turbo .96a/r
Turbosmart 38mm wastegate
Spearco air/water intercooler. (no water lines hooked up yet.)
Driver side header with 1 5/8 primaries and 2.5" collector
2.5" crossover pipe
Passenger side log setup 2.5" and a T4 flange at the front. (copied Parish!)
Spark Plugs are NGK R5671A-8 Gapped .035"
Ford EDIS-8 Wasted Spark Ignition sytem
MSD DIS-4 Ignition box
Megasquirt 2 fuel injection controller (and ignition timing.)
Precision Industries Vigilante 3800 stall converter
700 R4 Transmission
3.73 Rear gear
4300lb 96 Chevy Pickup
Ok... I managed to get it running and idling quite smoothly. AFR at Idle around 14.0 Although it seems like it better when it's slightly richer. When it first ran, the headers glowed red hot at an idle. You could almost see through them. I was told it was that the timing was too retarded so we cranked up the timing and the headers cooled right down. We are running about 42 degrees timing at idle.
Driving around town seems to be ok with a slight miss now and then. We're running about 36 degrees timing at cruise and an AFR of about 14.5
We have not completed the intercooler water hookup so we are basically non-intercooled right now. We have a 7lb spring in the wastegate and it will see no more than 8psi under high throttle.
I cannot open the throttle all the way because it breaks up bad.
If I progressively open the throttle, it will build boost and pull ok, but you still see a miss while under boost. It does not make the power it should. Under boost I am seeing a 12.8 AFR and a total advance of 30 degrees.
I took it to the eigth mile to see what it does. It was a sad display. The first run was 8.60's at 85 mph. UGH! SLOW!! I talked to a Grand National owner and he said that I was running WAY too much timing. He said that I should run no more than 26 degrees. So I turned the timing back and took another run. SLOWER this time. 8.90's at 82mph. It broke up more than it ever had.
Turned the timing back up and went to 32 degrees. (under boost) and it pulled better and got an 8.70. It broke up a little less, but still broke up some. AFR's were still in the mid to high 12's. I removed a plug and it loos a bit black, but not wet.
Everything I read about turbo's say I am running too much timing. I am wondering if there is a calibration problem with my timing control. It seems to like it when I turn the timing up, but I am scared to keep going and break something. The plugs do not show any hints of detonation. I haven't heard any pinging while it's under boost.
I also seem to have a bit of a problem with accelerator enrichment. It tends to bog a bit when the throttle is first openned, especially if openned aggressively. I have to roll into the throttle. The accelerator enrichment seems to be delayed a bit. When I look at the datalog, there is a moment of lean condition right after the throttle is openned, and then a rich condition. It should never lean out on throttle openning. It's only for a split second, but I know it's not right. If I make the response more sensitive, it launches better, but it has a bad side effect. It seems to go into accelerator enrichment mode while cruising and causes misfires.
My other problem is that it blows exhaust gaskets all the time. I was using FelPro 1405. It is the only available exhaust gasket for my heads. It blows them in about 20 minutes. I tried using SCE exhaust gaskets, which had to modify and they worked about a full day, then blew out. No one else makes gaskets for these heads and I am contemplating fabricating some exhaust gaskets out of alluminum. Running out of ideas!
Any thoughts or suggestions will certainly be appreciated. Don't beat me up too bad. I know I'm ignorant. Trying to learn something new. Thanks.
Fernando
Transmission Physicians
Tampa, FL
First of all, before I go to far... I am a transmission shop owner in Tampa FL and not much of a tuner so please forgive me for my ignorance!
Anyhow, after reading much about the blue Chevy truck that Parish has, I decided I wanted something similar. So I copied some of his stuff with less than favorable results. The truck has only been together for a week or so and I need to work out a ton of bugs. I just don't know which way to go on some of them. I'd like to first detail my setup.
Chevy Bowtie Sportsman block (383 cubes)
Callies Dragonslayer crank
Callies Compstar rods
JE forged pistons 8.5:1 CR (31cc dish)
Comp Cams turbo grind from C-Motorsports .561/.561 224/227 114 LSA
All ARP stud fasteners
SCE Titan ICS head gaskets
Dart Pro-1 Heads. 215cc runners 64cc chambers 2.05/1.6 valves Ported.
Accel Intake. (Looks like a Victor intake with injector bungs.)
Precision Turbo Elbow
Accufab 90mm throttle body
Siemens 83 lb/hr injectors
Aeromotive A1000 Fuel pump
Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator 45 psi
Dash 8 lines in, dash 6 lines out.
Turbonetics T-76 Turbo .96a/r
Turbosmart 38mm wastegate
Spearco air/water intercooler. (no water lines hooked up yet.)
Driver side header with 1 5/8 primaries and 2.5" collector
2.5" crossover pipe
Passenger side log setup 2.5" and a T4 flange at the front. (copied Parish!)
Spark Plugs are NGK R5671A-8 Gapped .035"
Ford EDIS-8 Wasted Spark Ignition sytem
MSD DIS-4 Ignition box
Megasquirt 2 fuel injection controller (and ignition timing.)
Precision Industries Vigilante 3800 stall converter
700 R4 Transmission
3.73 Rear gear
4300lb 96 Chevy Pickup
Ok... I managed to get it running and idling quite smoothly. AFR at Idle around 14.0 Although it seems like it better when it's slightly richer. When it first ran, the headers glowed red hot at an idle. You could almost see through them. I was told it was that the timing was too retarded so we cranked up the timing and the headers cooled right down. We are running about 42 degrees timing at idle.
Driving around town seems to be ok with a slight miss now and then. We're running about 36 degrees timing at cruise and an AFR of about 14.5
We have not completed the intercooler water hookup so we are basically non-intercooled right now. We have a 7lb spring in the wastegate and it will see no more than 8psi under high throttle.
I cannot open the throttle all the way because it breaks up bad.
If I progressively open the throttle, it will build boost and pull ok, but you still see a miss while under boost. It does not make the power it should. Under boost I am seeing a 12.8 AFR and a total advance of 30 degrees.
I took it to the eigth mile to see what it does. It was a sad display. The first run was 8.60's at 85 mph. UGH! SLOW!! I talked to a Grand National owner and he said that I was running WAY too much timing. He said that I should run no more than 26 degrees. So I turned the timing back and took another run. SLOWER this time. 8.90's at 82mph. It broke up more than it ever had.
Turned the timing back up and went to 32 degrees. (under boost) and it pulled better and got an 8.70. It broke up a little less, but still broke up some. AFR's were still in the mid to high 12's. I removed a plug and it loos a bit black, but not wet.
Everything I read about turbo's say I am running too much timing. I am wondering if there is a calibration problem with my timing control. It seems to like it when I turn the timing up, but I am scared to keep going and break something. The plugs do not show any hints of detonation. I haven't heard any pinging while it's under boost.
I also seem to have a bit of a problem with accelerator enrichment. It tends to bog a bit when the throttle is first openned, especially if openned aggressively. I have to roll into the throttle. The accelerator enrichment seems to be delayed a bit. When I look at the datalog, there is a moment of lean condition right after the throttle is openned, and then a rich condition. It should never lean out on throttle openning. It's only for a split second, but I know it's not right. If I make the response more sensitive, it launches better, but it has a bad side effect. It seems to go into accelerator enrichment mode while cruising and causes misfires.
My other problem is that it blows exhaust gaskets all the time. I was using FelPro 1405. It is the only available exhaust gasket for my heads. It blows them in about 20 minutes. I tried using SCE exhaust gaskets, which had to modify and they worked about a full day, then blew out. No one else makes gaskets for these heads and I am contemplating fabricating some exhaust gaskets out of alluminum. Running out of ideas!
Any thoughts or suggestions will certainly be appreciated. Don't beat me up too bad. I know I'm ignorant. Trying to learn something new. Thanks.
Fernando
Transmission Physicians
Tampa, FL
02-28-2006, 07:38 AM
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I'm no expert by any means, but, that truck is slow as **** the way it is set up. I run 8.2 in the 1/8th at 84mph for comparison. you should be WAY faster. That timing seems stupid high. I can run a max of 16deg without detonation. But of course, i'm supercharged and maybe that makes a difference. Not sure. Good luck. that is gonna be a sick truck when you figure it all out. 
02-28-2006, 08:39 AM
#5
Well thats a first gen small block so he can run a lot more timming then the third gen stuff we are used to seeing around here. 30 degrees with pump gas and that low compression is doable with a cam choice that will allow it. Sounds to me as though you have a ignition problem. Get with Diesilgeek, he can help you with the ford coil setup, you do not have enough spark right now. What plugs are you running and what gap? Run the AFR in the low 12's high 11's to be safe on pump fuel under boost. Run it as lean as 15.5:1 under very light loads.
02-28-2006, 08:53 AM
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The timing does sound quite a bit high, but if I retard it, it runs horrible. It FEELS like it needs even MORE advance. But I fear turning it up some more.
The plugs are NGK R5671A-8 and I have the gap at .035"
It does feel like an ignition miss when it breaks up, but I just don't understand why.
Also... if it means anything. It's getting about 3 miles per gallon even under normal driving. I Know it has 83 lb injectors but that is just WAY too much fuel consumption. I need to have a tanker truck follow me around. Interestingly enough, there is no black smoke out the back, but the plugs do look pretty black.
And yeah... it's stupid slow. The truck was faster when it was stock. I know it has more in it. I just don't have it set up right, and I'm not experienced enough to figure it out by myself.
Thanks guys!
Fernando
Transmission Physcians
Tampa, FL
The plugs are NGK R5671A-8 and I have the gap at .035"
It does feel like an ignition miss when it breaks up, but I just don't understand why.
Also... if it means anything. It's getting about 3 miles per gallon even under normal driving. I Know it has 83 lb injectors but that is just WAY too much fuel consumption. I need to have a tanker truck follow me around. Interestingly enough, there is no black smoke out the back, but the plugs do look pretty black.
And yeah... it's stupid slow. The truck was faster when it was stock. I know it has more in it. I just don't have it set up right, and I'm not experienced enough to figure it out by myself.
Thanks guys!
Fernando
Transmission Physcians
Tampa, FL
Trending Topics
02-28-2006, 09:01 AM
#8
is the motor tuned for those injectors i hope,ull wash down the cylinders otherwise.Isnt Rev Extreme in Tampa?Take it to them to get the tune straightened out.The gap seems ok,might be a plug wire or coil problem,id get it to someone whose tuned for a living.
02-28-2006, 09:23 AM
#9
Have you verified the advance with a timing light yet?
I assume your reading the airfuel with a wideband, and it's properly calibrated?
Your giving up alot running it basically non-intercooled, but with a big restriction inline. Which cooler do you have?
Do you have control over the dwell with the squirt and EDIS?
First observation, the A1000 will not be enough pump.
By the sound of it, you don't have the airfuel you think you have. Based on the fuel usage and what sounds like a rich misfire.
When it breaks up, is it a weak stumble or a violent pop?
30° with a slower burn chamber is not too crazy. Then again i ran right around there with mine at 28+ psi (but on c16
)
Also, 8 psi isn't gonna get you much in the grand scheme.
I assume your reading the airfuel with a wideband, and it's properly calibrated?
Your giving up alot running it basically non-intercooled, but with a big restriction inline. Which cooler do you have?
Do you have control over the dwell with the squirt and EDIS?
First observation, the A1000 will not be enough pump.
By the sound of it, you don't have the airfuel you think you have. Based on the fuel usage and what sounds like a rich misfire.
When it breaks up, is it a weak stumble or a violent pop?
30° with a slower burn chamber is not too crazy. Then again i ran right around there with mine at 28+ psi (but on c16
)Also, 8 psi isn't gonna get you much in the grand scheme.
02-28-2006, 01:03 PM
#12
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iTrader: (34)
Die die die Cornell Bitches...
Does it pop thru intake or exhaust?
I had a friend with a carbed LT1. He kept adding timing at the track... more more more. Never went faster. By the end of the nite he had added 17 degrees of timing. Seems like a scary way to tune some expensive parts.
Does it pop thru intake or exhaust?
I had a friend with a carbed LT1. He kept adding timing at the track... more more more. Never went faster. By the end of the nite he had added 17 degrees of timing. Seems like a scary way to tune some expensive parts.
02-28-2006, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by y2khawk
Have you verified the advance with a timing light yet?
I assume your reading the airfuel with a wideband, and it's properly calibrated?
Your giving up alot running it basically non-intercooled, but with a big restriction inline. Which cooler do you have?
Do you have control over the dwell with the squirt and EDIS?
First observation, the A1000 will not be enough pump.
By the sound of it, you don't have the airfuel you think you have. Based on the fuel usage and what sounds like a rich misfire.
When it breaks up, is it a weak stumble or a violent pop?
30° with a slower burn chamber is not too crazy. Then again i ran right around there with mine at 28+ psi (but on c16 )
Also, 8 psi isn't gonna get you much in the grand scheme.
I assume your reading the airfuel with a wideband, and it's properly calibrated?
Your giving up alot running it basically non-intercooled, but with a big restriction inline. Which cooler do you have?
Do you have control over the dwell with the squirt and EDIS?
First observation, the A1000 will not be enough pump.
By the sound of it, you don't have the airfuel you think you have. Based on the fuel usage and what sounds like a rich misfire.
When it breaks up, is it a weak stumble or a violent pop?
30° with a slower burn chamber is not too crazy. Then again i ran right around there with mine at 28+ psi (but on c16
)Also, 8 psi isn't gonna get you much in the grand scheme.
The intercooler is a Spearco air/water. It is trapezoidal shaped. It has a 3" inlet and outlet and two 3/4" water connections. I was told it would support up to 1200 so I expect I have more of a cooler than I need. I have no water to it yet because I need to build a box that fits my truck to hold the water. Hopefully I can get that done toward the end of the week. So for now, it's non-intercooled and I know I am losing some power, but that isn't the reason it breaks up under boost. It's low boost anyway.
Yes, I have control over the dwell with the EDIS/Squirt combo. Right now I have it set at 4 miliseconds. It used to be set at 3 and I just moved it up, but haven't test driven it yet. I didn't want to put too high a value and burn out my coils. I don't know how much the Ford coils can take.
I realized that the A1000 isn't going to be enough pump. I have plans to change it, but I am not sure to what. Maybe the Eliminator will work. It's not enough pump when I turn up the boost, but for the present testing it should suffice. It says that it's good up to 800hp forced induction. I'd be lucky to make 400 right now.
I belive that the wideband I have is accurate because I have compared it against another one in a different car and it showed reliable readings. Hopefully tomorrow night I can get some dyno time and verify against their air/fuel.
When it breaks up, it is not violent. It just feels like an ignition miss. There is no pop. When I turned the timing back to 26 degrees though, it popped out the intake pretty bad and the breaking up was a bit more harsh.
I know 8 psi is a joke. That is not the intended final boost. It was the weakest spring I could put in my wastegate for right now while I figure out what I'm doing. Once it works at this boost level, I intend to hit it with some more.
Is it unrealistic for me to expect this combination to make 800 wheel horsepower once it works right?
Fernando
Transmission Physicians
Tampa, FL
02-28-2006, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Die die die Cornell Bitches...
Does it pop thru intake or exhaust?
I had a friend with a carbed LT1. He kept adding timing at the track... more more more. Never went faster. By the end of the nite he had added 17 degrees of timing. Seems like a scary way to tune some expensive parts.
Does it pop thru intake or exhaust?
I had a friend with a carbed LT1. He kept adding timing at the track... more more more. Never went faster. By the end of the nite he had added 17 degrees of timing. Seems like a scary way to tune some expensive parts.
It doesn't pop out of either the exhaust or intake. It just stumbles. Don't know another way to describe it. It feels like a n/a car that has the timing retarded.
I haven't kept turning the timing up. Just like you said.... I'm scared to do it and ruin my engine. That's why I'm asking around. Just trying to educate myself before I break something expensive. Heck... I'm just proud of myself for getting it running so far!!
I would take it and get a pro to tune it, but I would never learn anything that way. I like to do things myself and learn as I go. There is no better teacher than experience.
Fernando
Transmission Physicians
Tampa, FL
02-28-2006, 03:46 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Transman
When it breaks up, it is not violent. It just feels like an ignition miss. There is no pop. When I turned the timing back to 26 degrees though, it popped out the intake pretty bad and the breaking up was a bit more harsh.
Put a timing light on it before you do anything else.
Is the EDIS fed by a single spark signal?? Trying to get an idea of how much dwell you can feed it. IMO 3ms is not near enough, even with MSD coils unless your feeding it with one of thier CD boxes. You'll ultimately be limited by your max RPM on dwell time.
But before anything else, verify your damper markings for TDC #1, and get a timing light on it.
03-01-2006, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by y2khawk
Moving it back to what you think is 26 and getting it to cross fire is a sure sign your crank sensor angle isn't right.
Put a timing light on it before you do anything else.
Is the EDIS fed by a single spark signal?? Trying to get an idea of how much dwell you can feed it. IMO 3ms is not near enough, even with MSD coils unless your feeding it with one of thier CD boxes. You'll ultimately be limited by your max RPM on dwell time.
But before anything else, verify your damper markings for TDC #1, and get a timing light on it.
Put a timing light on it before you do anything else.
Is the EDIS fed by a single spark signal?? Trying to get an idea of how much dwell you can feed it. IMO 3ms is not near enough, even with MSD coils unless your feeding it with one of thier CD boxes. You'll ultimately be limited by your max RPM on dwell time.
But before anything else, verify your damper markings for TDC #1, and get a timing light on it.
As for the EDIS... I'm not sure that I understand your question about it being fed by a single spark signal. The EDIS is pretty much a stand alone system. I will try to decribe it as best I can. It has a 36 tooth crank wheel minus 1 tooth. This is how it finds #1. It has no cam sensor. There are 4 coils although they are packed like two. They share a common power source and the module grounds each coil. (There are 4 gorund wires)
I do not have the MSD coils on it. They are Stock Ford coils. I'm not even turning it to high RPM's. In the future I will put the MSD coils on it. But for the present purposes, it SHOULD work.
I do have an MSD box on it. So I have capacitive discharge on it. I have the MSD Digital DIS-4.
Is it possible that I am running too much gap on the plugs? I have them set at .035". Should I go smaller?
Fernando
Transmission Phsyicians
Tampa, FL
