favorite way to put heads down for FI
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,018
Likes: 51
From: Virginia
favorite way to put heads down for FI just had a conversation about cold retorqing with greg at fel pro
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
I would agree that anything better than 30RA and you'll be in the clear.
Check this thread out.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/740450-head-gasket-setup-extreme-combo.html
Check this thread out.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/740450-head-gasket-setup-extreme-combo.html
Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
just had a conversation about cold retorqing with greg at fel pro
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
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LOL! Yeah I am sure I am not the only one, but I do have my own procedure I have had good luck with in the past not I have never blown a head gasket I did push water with the Vortech and N02, but not bad really considering I still had 20 degrees of timing in it. mine is simple as I like the KISS method of thinking on a lot of things. Very clean surfaces freshly machined preferably (Brake clean or something equal to it to wipe it off with lint free rag.). Studs in block new gaskets on block lube studs very well and all washer coated both sides. Install heads place washer on studs and lube nuts as well ( Usually run them on a stud to make sure the threads have a thin coat also.) install nuts and then tighten them all down by hand in sequence. Then I start with the TQ wrench and go down in 10lb increments til I get to 75-80lbs on a stock ARP stud if the L19's then I go to 100lbs. Usually going over each tq seqence at least 3 times once I get above 60lbs then I let it sit over night and then come back the next day and re-tq them. I have often wanted to re-tq after heat cycling them, but I have been too lazy to do it and don't know if it would make a difference with MLS head gaskets anyways. I know everyone has there own ways this is just mine so I thought I'd share it with you guys and see what everyone else is doing. I did use a Very thin coat of Yamabond on the TT orange car and I haven't had any problems, but I haven't gone above 18-18.89lbs of boost yet. Good info thanks for sharing David.
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From: Texas, it's like your state, but better.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ff9...s#PRA1-PA76,M1
good reading.
I've had good results with taking the gaskets apart and coating each layer with coppercoat. seems to work well.
good reading.
I've had good results with taking the gaskets apart and coating each layer with coppercoat. seems to work well.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
When I built my engine...i cleaned the deck with fine wet and dry...heads were new, and torqued them to 80lbft !!!!
Lasted over a year...although its quite obvious why they lifted when they did :S
Given I dont want to spend any money in the short term.....Im cleaning this one with scotchbrite pads.
if it lasts as long as the last time, I'll be more than happy...
Lasted over a year...although its quite obvious why they lifted when they did :S
Given I dont want to spend any money in the short term.....Im cleaning this one with scotchbrite pads.
if it lasts as long as the last time, I'll be more than happy...
What is and where can you get the CMD #3 lube? My engine guy said that your surface RA has to do with the speed of the cutter, the faster the higher the RA and vice versa. How did he say to remove the black coating from the studs, is there a chemical that will remove it?
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,018
Likes: 51
From: Virginia
oven cleaner normally removes any anodizing or oxiding.. may have mentioned a wire wheel to me though..
the lube can be from industrial supply stores like grainger etc.
the lube can be from industrial supply stores like grainger etc.
Originally Posted by stevieturbo
Will removing the black coating really make a difference ???
it may be a stupid question but i dont know and it came to mind.
Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
just had a conversation about cold retorqing with greg at fel pro
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
said a few interesting things, hope he's ok with spreading the knowledge.
-remove black coating from arp studs, says it decreases friction
-prefers to use cmd#3 lube as compared to arp lube or oil, says it is more stable
-prefers 3 rounds of tqing.. second and third round to loosen the bolts in sequence one at a time, and then go back to the tq you want to click in one motion.. said you should see it geting further around each time.
-prefers a head surface roughness of 30RA or better, i have to read up on what RA is.
-also wants me to check to see if any of the nuts are bottoming out on the stud and locking as opposed to locking from clamping force.. said he has heard of that before.
anybody have tricks up their sleeve similar?
i think with all of this it is worth seeing if i can retorque mine.. at least the big nuts
I agree with most of this. I do not agree with removing the zinc-oxide coating from the bolts. I don't believe it will decrease friction (if somebody has proof I am all ears). I am guessing it would increase friction some because you are roughing up the threads and you are removing that thing film coating.
I definitely agree with the multiple torquing. What you are doing is combatting the setting that occurs in bolted joints. This is also why ARP recommends a retorque after the engine has gone thru a heat cycle.
To control the Ra of the surfaces you would have to tell your engine shop what you want.
In regards to actually torquing things I see some guys make the mistake of not holding the torque wrench by its handle. Also, use a torque wrench that has the proper range for what you are doing. Most click torque wrenches are very inacurrate below 25% of their range. I like to stay in the 40-90% range. So basically I would not use a 250 ft-lb wrench to torque something to 75 ft-lb
Last edited by bowtieman81; Jul 13, 2007 at 06:29 PM.
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allright, listen if you want to or not...
I had been running 17lbs of boost on my 408 small block mopar with 22 deg timing..This head has 4 1/2" arp studs per cylinder....using coppers with the sticky as **** black brush on permatex sealer..started pushing water at 17lbs of boost..was very annoying...
fix...run the radiator a few inches low, and I put a new 21 psi cap on
4- 25psi dyno pulls and 2 21-22 psi 1/8 mile runs and not a drop of water pushed...
Just a thought.
I had been running 17lbs of boost on my 408 small block mopar with 22 deg timing..This head has 4 1/2" arp studs per cylinder....using coppers with the sticky as **** black brush on permatex sealer..started pushing water at 17lbs of boost..was very annoying...
fix...run the radiator a few inches low, and I put a new 21 psi cap on
4- 25psi dyno pulls and 2 21-22 psi 1/8 mile runs and not a drop of water pushed...
Just a thought.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,018
Likes: 51
From: Virginia
ok so update:
i did the cold retorque yesterday on the big bolts one at a time loosened and then pulled back to 90# i was surprised by how much some of them moved... hopefully that is a good thing.
after that i cut the intermediate pipe of the stainless works cat back and stuck in my qtp 3.5" cut out from the formula.
hopefully i will drop some backpressure and hold some water back
oh and i did stick a 20psi rad cap on there that i had laying around from the formula as well.
will find out friday night
i did the cold retorque yesterday on the big bolts one at a time loosened and then pulled back to 90# i was surprised by how much some of them moved... hopefully that is a good thing.
after that i cut the intermediate pipe of the stainless works cat back and stuck in my qtp 3.5" cut out from the formula.
hopefully i will drop some backpressure and hold some water back
oh and i did stick a 20psi rad cap on there that i had laying around from the formula as well.
will find out friday night
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Originally Posted by turbocuda
allright, listen if you want to or not...
I had been running 17lbs of boost on my 408 small block mopar with 22 deg timing..This head has 4 1/2" arp studs per cylinder....using coppers with the sticky as **** black brush on permatex sealer..started pushing water at 17lbs of boost..was very annoying...
fix...run the radiator a few inches low, and I put a new 21 psi cap on
4- 25psi dyno pulls and 2 21-22 psi 1/8 mile runs and not a drop of water pushed...
Just a thought.
I had been running 17lbs of boost on my 408 small block mopar with 22 deg timing..This head has 4 1/2" arp studs per cylinder....using coppers with the sticky as **** black brush on permatex sealer..started pushing water at 17lbs of boost..was very annoying...
fix...run the radiator a few inches low, and I put a new 21 psi cap on
4- 25psi dyno pulls and 2 21-22 psi 1/8 mile runs and not a drop of water pushed...
Just a thought.
Adding more air into the system is not a cure. It may alleviate the symptoms, but it is not a cure.
There is still some pressure escaping into the cooling system, you are just allowing it some room to do so. It would be interesting to see what your pressure in the cooling system was.
I think the larger studs would also help.
I have a friend that runs low 9's with a Subaru motor. Amazingly, last time out with some 0.074" thick Cometic MLS gaskets, 14mm studs ( these have only 4 bolts per cyl too ) the pressure in his cooling system never rose beyond 10psi, thats with a 9.3 at 159mph pass.
I was actually very amazed at that !