2000TurboVert

iTrader: (17)

Did you get that money order sent out, or did you go through someone else?

darkhorizon

If only throwing money at it would fix our problems...

Insisting on selling him stuff that will "fix" his problems is a bit annoying... Please just help us with the problem at hand and try not to make money off him.

2000TurboVert

iTrader: (17)

No ones trying to make money off of this guy.. He called me and wanted to get the exhaust housing, and said he was sending the money off.. Ive got a sales order with STS for the exhaust housing, just wanted to make sure he was going to go through with it... If hes not, I need to know so I can cancel the SO...

And by the way... a .96 ar is NOT a good thing to have on this setup.. and hes loosing Valuable Horsepower there.... So it IS aproblem...

Public

iTrader: (19)

OK bit tounge long enough. Saw a truck do this once that had a turbo seized up, was crazy bad like it hit a wall at mid range rpm. Change plugs to TR6 NOW if not already done jebus. Make sure intake 90º elbow is not collapsing/sucking shut. Swap the housing unless your into a larger engine then 346, its really large for a REAR MOUNT stock cube engine. Then FFS have the tuner put some fuel in that thing, NA tune wont cut it now and you better have pump/injectors to support it. Turbo's like a little extra gas to get it turning(STS a lil more), fuel accordingly right before/where turbo goes to work, timing is a nice variable in the same area. 11 afr would be as lean as i would ever want to see myself without meth injection on boost. OK so more fuel has extra benefits, spools turbo and cools charge saves pistons. Your raising IAT so raise the cooling/fueling.

This kit takes some loving understanding to pay off, look at Zombie he understands the ways of the rear mount. Myself i have a GT70 turbo, wastegate plumbed to intake, stock exhaust manifolds, MAC Y, 2.75" stock exhast to turbo with no wrap and spools at 2800 and wastegate open like maybe 3400. The base .60 turbo felt like 150 nitrous shot made 463 on dyno at 8lbs never used the GT67 went straight to the GT70. The 70 is a smoother hit(no lag just smooth) than the 60 and tires prefer the 70. Rode in a "nothing stock" incon car, thx Mike, that was like the 60 when it came in just 150 more HP when it did and thats with BB turbo's.

darkhorizon

The car is running PLENTY rich enough, the tune held just fine. I got to scan the car a bit tonight with efilive, and things came back fairly normal. The maf sensor sits pretty static when he goes wide open just like the turner said, saw a decent amount of KR about 4-7 degrees tonight anyway,the narrowbands were reating .95-.96, and both where pretty much the same. (.950 = about 11.75:1) Injectors are hardly even doing anything, they just hang out and 70-80% or 15-17 IPW. With all the KR we saw he was averaging about 12 degrees of timing, so when he saw KR free boost, he was running 16 degrees.

The simple fact is, the car has the right amount of fuel whenever he wants it, and the PCM is commanding a reasonable amount of timing.

The charge side of the turbo is LEAK FREE up to 20psi, the wastegate works, the turbo spools like a bitch at idle even, there is no possible reason this kit should not be making huge power, but it just doesnt. The plugs are working fine, the boost comes on most of the time (first gear sucks impossible to see positive pressure).

the boot on the TB does collapse like a crazything which could cause first gear to suck, but I doubt it makes that huge of a difference.

I am almost leaning to a turbo problem now, even though it works fine because there is not possibly anything that could be wrong with this car. The ONLY problem that needs to be solved is why the car makes 50 less HP at 6k rpms then it does at 4k rpms.

Public

iTrader: (19)

Sounds like valve springs then if car was fine before kit. So change springs and id do the plugs to TR6 anyway and see what the leakdown is while there.

Zombie

iTrader: (2)

Fix that stat. That's blow the pistons to chunks knock you are seeing. An occasional blip of knock under 2 degrees is safe as long as it only occurs once and doesn't continue during the pull. Anything over 2 degrees and you should lift.

Get a aeroforcetech scan gage and a permanant wideband on that car if it doesn't already have them.

darkhorizon

I know how horrid that knock is.... the car is baffleing, its pushing less air than my 3800, and knocking way more than my un intercooled 3800 blower motor..

After scanning it, I dont think there is any amount of tuning that can help this thing...

JAvenger007

iTrader: (9)

How many miles were on this car and what year? Springs could possibly see float above 4k, especially at 7+psi if that is what you are running the car at. IMO a .96 housing is not the problem here. Yes, you will likely see faster spool and more response but it should not "hinder" performance in this respect. STS sells all of their standard kits with those housings. Just to give an example, my car felt extremely weak initially during tuning once the turbo was on even at 5psi and intercooled. When I put on my .96 housing for a datalog run, the car immediately ripped the tires loose on the first WOT run in third gear and less than 2* of KR versus 6+ from before.

Do NOT continue to drive the car under those conditions. Even if you have the fuel, if your running at 7+psi then you will see high IATs without an intercooler and lift the heads under excessive KR. At 6psi I was getting significant knock even with IATs in the 120-140 range and that was with an intercooler. It boosted coolant and likely ruined the gaskets.

Im sure i have said it before, but find a tuner that is at least familiar with turbo tuning, because you are claiming that there are no mechanical issues with the car. Make the drive to a reputable shop and get the job done right. And before you go, get that new intercooler installed.

darkhorizon

The car is no better at 5psi, it still runs like junk. I think I will just have him turn it down to 5 psi for now, so he isnt knocking.

The tune is right, no matter how much we want to think it isnt, his air fuel is PLENTY rich, it doesnt spike lean anywhere, nor does it lean out at high rpms, nor do the injectors max out. The timing is the only other thing in the "tune" that could hurt performance, but there is plenty of that even when he is knocking 7 degrees...

There is a mechanical issue here, it is just perfectly invisible to me and everyone that I have talked to, or has looked at this car. I think that maybe the boost has been a bit high, and damage might have been done on the dyno, and we just cant see it. A partial compression test is getting done soon.

My current thought is, the car went quite lean on the dyno for a bunch of pulls at 7 psi, although excessive knock was usually backed out of quickly, it only takes one time to blow a ringland, at least in my experience with v6/4bangers.

As far as the install job and tuning, it is "done right" to every degree.

Public

iTrader: (19)

Time for straight talk! Can we sticky this thread for another "what not to do when going FI?" I read in detail this whole post again and:

You must be mechanically sound BEFORE boosting not after when #7 piston is in 2 pieces. Looks like tuner error with the codes the injectors are the purchaser/installer fault, MAF we can wait and see. Also to have cats with an STS is not a good idea, some do it i dont. They just dont seem to be able to handle the backpressure and extra fuel for rear mount.


Why would you ever want to goto any boost over 5 lb with a new install on a turbo LS1 with no experience. You've got to crawl before you can walk then RUN. So running boost for 475hp and fueling for 350 IMHO. Dont think this will work, cars on 42lb have issues FI. FI takes more fuel period, its a proven fact so fuel for NA and fail. Stock pump wont keep up but all of maybe .01% of these cars, some like to live on the edge of destruction.

What did you expect??? People are trying to save this cars engine from certain knock of death. 5 PSI is ok without intercooler/meth injection or both 7psi is not really safe IAT's simply get to high. Vendors are making available to you things to fix the current issue with the STS kit being sound at 8PSI not neccessarily the rest of the mechanical garbage issues at hand, so lighten up. These vendors HAVE successfully installed this kit and attained good results. People are trying to help here free your mind from stubborness.

Well to finally realize this is progress but its way late in the game. Hi IAT and fuel system looking not so great RIGHT?

Not even close. If i was this guy i would get my car to an FI pro while their may still be time to save the engine and slavage this mess. Depending on what a real FI pro says it could get interesting quick...
Conclusion: In my mind reading some of the stickies at the top of the FI forum could have really helped this install go smoother. I wouldnt attempt any boost on this thing at all with a stock fuel pump, and your shooting for 7 PSI with it, GL. 42lb injectors just barely get the job done at 8psi.

darkhorizon

What is an FI pro going to do for me???

The fuel system never craped out, the car is running VERY lean, there is plenty of fuel all over, I dont know why anyone ever infered otherwise.

As far as boost levels go, I had no control over where he decided to start boosting at... because I just didnt know.

The first dyno session was actually better because the spark dropped out at high rpms, which saved him from knocking up there. We fixed the plugs and cats, and it didnt do anything to help the dyno session.

jeremy02

I hope you get your problem fixed without it costing you too much


...and I really hope this doesn't happen to me once I install my STS kit.

NYSS Guy

iTrader: (1)

Public is right. Unfortunately a lot of research is being done too late in the game. Now it's going to cost the OP more money to get it right. The injectors and fuel pump are absolutely not good to skimp on. Why take the chance?

Keep in mind too, you have "fuel all over", but the car isn't even boosting correctly. And, with the high IAT's a lot of timing is being pulled. Once that is corrected, you're going to need more fuel.

jeremy02, just do a lot of research, you should be fine. And remember fuel and tune are of the utmost importance in a turbo application. I'm out of fuel pump on my setup, so I have tuned accordingly, and didn't get greedy. Be patient, and do it right.

rojows7

iTrader: (2)

agreed i didnt bother going with the recommended 42 lbs injectors..went straight to 60's...when doing fi u cant do a little budget build you use garbage on ur fi install u get garbage u can get away w/ that on a N/A and nitrous set up u could but on a FI build... ....took my time w/ my set up..only missing ic..dont wanna use meth..and at 5psi put down 450hp/416tq...idk know about the torq something was off but do it right dont do it half assed

gametech

iTrader: (1)

LOL at this whole thread. The guy claims the A/F is dead-on, but the car still hasn't even seen a wideband. Also claims the cold side is leak-free, but hasn't tested the hot side. Who knows what is wrong with the complete lack of proper diagnostic info? I'm guessing mechanical problem AND improper tune.

Public

iTrader: (19)

Yeah its almost like a bad gag thread to get a rise from peeps. I feel for the owner, and i know this is a rough and humbling learning curve he's on. Would smile if "I ran a 11.50 and blew the tires off" is his next thread. Something is SO wrong and the current mech is stumped by the data/results, of which some sounds false or is being misread IMHO. Its ok to be beaten down by a problem and seek help, do it. I wouldnt want walmart oil change center to fill a cavity on my molar. But hey for $20 they can change oil in the wifes car and for $200 i can get the dentist who knows how to do the job right the first time without making more problems along the way. Half assed build on stock FI LS1 engine NA just be a lil slower usually but FI trash #7 piston a lot.


Hard to blame the tuner at this point for all the other mechanical issues, but yeah tune not looking so good either. I'm sure he had a hard time since this things never been right after the turbo went on. My thoughts are 2 maybe 3 problems compounding each other here, data is so confliciting. Car could use a fresh OPEN mind on it who has been around a lil more who wont say OK i changed X part so it must be fine(new/used parts always work, right). Basically a shop/somebody to get hands on troubleshoot and tune this thing is what i think is best now. 99% of what goes wrong with new FI installs has been covered already. I'm teching out now and GL with this.

"God, is in the details!"

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

42#ers work fine.... 60#ers ran me rich as **** at idle.

everyone who has references millivolt reading from 02's be careful...double check it with a wideband

bad things happen to people that don't prepare for this all and get the car ready, thats what this forum is for, ask questions and learn..yes you have to sift through some BS but you learn so much in the process. Something is DEF wrong with this car....and I don't know what it is but durn it needs to get fixed and he needs to get some new numbers. See my signature for what i made and my thread on my build

darkhorizon

I dont know why everyone here just makes up stuff, the car HAS BEEN on a dyno, with a wideband, for many hours, and I know how to read a narrowband for ballpark air/fuel.

There is nothing mechanicaly "skimped" on, the injectors are FINE, the fuel pump is FINE, its all confirmed by scanning on and off the dyno, with fuel pressure gauge right on the fuel rail. PLEASE quit saying that "skimping" on injectors is the problem, because it is OBVIOUSLY not. The injector duty cycle, and injector pulse widths are fine, with no drops in fuel pressure. The wideband on the dyno showed mid 11's for afr, and so does the narrowband now, which is the same as it did on the dyno.

THERE IS FUEL GOING TO THE MOTOR!!!! please please stop saying there isnt, the tune is FINE. The only reason I am actually posting here is to find out what sort of problem you could have motor wise, because I know nothing about LS1's motor wise. What could possibly be restricting all airflow at 4000rpms. I have never seen anything like this, if I looked at this problem from the outside, I would say that there is a large restriction in the intake, in the form of a restrictor plate on a carburetor type thing.

The car "boosts" fine, it comes in late, but it does make pressure and holds it fairly well, but I think that there is SOMETHING that the motor is doing that is screwing it up above 4000rpms, because I have heard the wastegate close above 4k rpms before..

The hot side is fine, I dont know who is trying to say we have a leak there, because exhaust leaks are VERY obvious for those that actually work on cars...

The compressor side is fully leak free now.

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Broken valvespring?