Questions about E85
05-22-2018, 11:45 PM
#1
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Questions about E85 So I’ve been wanting to go from 93 to E85. Guy that tuned my car even said it might be a good idea. I just have a few questions about it before I buy bigger injectors and fuel pump.
#1 Would it be worth it? It’s a H/C/I/E car the heads are 862 5.3 worked over by TSP so I know my compression is higher than stock I’m guessing 10.9 maybe 11 not really sure. Premium gas prices here are on average 3.50 a gallon and I can get E85 at around 2.10 a gallon from a few gas stations around me. It’s a lot cheaper but I know it’ll burn a lot faster. How much faster I don’t know.
#2 how long can E85 sit in injectors and lines before stuff gets messed up? I don’t daily drive my car really at all I try to drive it on weekend and some week days to work. At most the car sits for about a week maybe a week and a half. But the winter time the car is stored in my garage from September-February maybe March. Would it be fine sitting through winter with E85 in it?
#3 last and final thing really is, is there anything I should watch out for when switching? Planning on going with 80lb Deka injectors and a Walbro 450 fuel pump. Everything else is stock. Will probably do a K&N fuel filter when I do the switch.
#1 Would it be worth it? It’s a H/C/I/E car the heads are 862 5.3 worked over by TSP so I know my compression is higher than stock I’m guessing 10.9 maybe 11 not really sure. Premium gas prices here are on average 3.50 a gallon and I can get E85 at around 2.10 a gallon from a few gas stations around me. It’s a lot cheaper but I know it’ll burn a lot faster. How much faster I don’t know.
#2 how long can E85 sit in injectors and lines before stuff gets messed up? I don’t daily drive my car really at all I try to drive it on weekend and some week days to work. At most the car sits for about a week maybe a week and a half. But the winter time the car is stored in my garage from September-February maybe March. Would it be fine sitting through winter with E85 in it?
#3 last and final thing really is, is there anything I should watch out for when switching? Planning on going with 80lb Deka injectors and a Walbro 450 fuel pump. Everything else is stock. Will probably do a K&N fuel filter when I do the switch.
05-23-2018, 03:56 AM
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It's only really worth it if you advance the timing and the car makes more power with that timing. Some cars don't make more power with more timing than what they have already with 93 octane, so they don't benefit nearly as much. My tuner and I went through this on my car a while back
05-23-2018, 01:15 PM
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It's only really worth it if you advance the timing and the car makes more power with that timing. Some cars don't make more power with more timing than what they have already with 93 octane, so they don't benefit nearly as much. My tuner and I went through this on my car a while back
05-23-2018, 01:30 PM
#4
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If you run E85 use the Stabil for Alcohol fuel, OR use a alcohol fuel lube for storage,, I use Klotz but there are several brands..
Alchohol has roughly 20% less energy than gasoline (Ethanol or Methanol) so
E85 gets real roughly about 85% of 20% less mileage than straight gas.
So if your getting 10 MPG now you'll drop to 8 to 9 MPG.. (Just rough example your tune has way more impact... )
Because of the extra fuel pumped by allowing the timing advance and such, at full power you'll see
Way more torque usually before you see a big HP jump..
As a small example I helped convert a Dwarf car with a 1300 GXR motor from race gas to Methanol,
we had to almost triple the size of the fuel cell to carry enough gas to make the car finish a 20 minute session.
Cylinder head temps dropped in half, We were seeing momentary temps as high as 550 on race gas, (YES thats bad) with the Methanol
we dropped to 175 and had a hard time keeping the engine warm..
On a 45 degree day we had to cover the engine with a blanket to get it warmed up.
Dont run any car on alcohol without getting it fully to temperature, they are 10 times as bad about
condensing moisture and it takes a while to burn it out of the oil. If I was storing a car up for more than a
few weeks I'd flush the fuel system with regular gas and change the oil.. ON race cars I started adding a "T"
on the supply and return with dump valves so I could run the engine over to gas then shut it off with
regular fuel in the lines and injectors, we have bowl drains on all the carved engines to make draining the alcohol easy.
Added a switch to the main pump in the tank so we can turn it off during the flushing process.
Alchohol has roughly 20% less energy than gasoline (Ethanol or Methanol) so
E85 gets real roughly about 85% of 20% less mileage than straight gas.
So if your getting 10 MPG now you'll drop to 8 to 9 MPG.. (Just rough example your tune has way more impact... )
Because of the extra fuel pumped by allowing the timing advance and such, at full power you'll see
Way more torque usually before you see a big HP jump..
As a small example I helped convert a Dwarf car with a 1300 GXR motor from race gas to Methanol,
we had to almost triple the size of the fuel cell to carry enough gas to make the car finish a 20 minute session.
Cylinder head temps dropped in half, We were seeing momentary temps as high as 550 on race gas, (YES thats bad) with the Methanol
we dropped to 175 and had a hard time keeping the engine warm..
On a 45 degree day we had to cover the engine with a blanket to get it warmed up.
Dont run any car on alcohol without getting it fully to temperature, they are 10 times as bad about
condensing moisture and it takes a while to burn it out of the oil. If I was storing a car up for more than a
few weeks I'd flush the fuel system with regular gas and change the oil.. ON race cars I started adding a "T"
on the supply and return with dump valves so I could run the engine over to gas then shut it off with
regular fuel in the lines and injectors, we have bowl drains on all the carved engines to make draining the alcohol easy.
Added a switch to the main pump in the tank so we can turn it off during the flushing process.
05-23-2018, 02:25 PM
#5
I run a Flex fuel setup and my tune uses about 38% more fuel @ 85% ethanol. When it comes to sitting 2-3 weeks you'll be fine, If it's going to sit for months just run the tank low and throw a few gallons of 93 in it and maybe some stabil.
Power wise you might pick up some power and should pick up some torque (most do). If you're engine is knock limited then running E85 should gain power.
You could also look into a flex fuel setup if your ECM supports it.
Power wise you might pick up some power and should pick up some torque (most do). If you're engine is knock limited then running E85 should gain power.
You could also look into a flex fuel setup if your ECM supports it.
05-23-2018, 02:33 PM
#6
So I’ve been wanting to go from 93 to E85. Guy that tuned my car even said it might be a good idea. I just have a few questions about it before I buy bigger injectors and fuel pump.
#1 Would it be worth it? It’s a H/C/I/E car the heads are 862 5.3 worked over by TSP so I know my compression is higher than stock I’m guessing 10.9 maybe 11 not really sure. Premium gas prices here are on average 3.50 a gallon and I can get E85 at around 2.10 a gallon from a few gas stations around me. It’s a lot cheaper but I know it’ll burn a lot faster. How much faster I don’t know. Usually about 25-35% more, depending on your tune
#2 how long can E85 sit in injectors and lines before stuff gets messed up? I don’t daily drive my car really at all I try to drive it on weekend and some week days to work. At most the car sits for about a week maybe a week and a half. But the winter time the car is stored in my garage from September-February maybe March. Would it be fine sitting through winter with E85 in it? Ethanol is not corrosive like methanol is. You can leave it sit forever without worrying about it eating parts.
#3 last and final thing really is, is there anything I should watch out for when switching? Planning on going with 80lb Deka injectors and a Walbro 450 fuel pump. Everything else is stock. Will probably do a K&N fuel filter when I do the switch.
#1 Would it be worth it? It’s a H/C/I/E car the heads are 862 5.3 worked over by TSP so I know my compression is higher than stock I’m guessing 10.9 maybe 11 not really sure. Premium gas prices here are on average 3.50 a gallon and I can get E85 at around 2.10 a gallon from a few gas stations around me. It’s a lot cheaper but I know it’ll burn a lot faster. How much faster I don’t know. Usually about 25-35% more, depending on your tune
#2 how long can E85 sit in injectors and lines before stuff gets messed up? I don’t daily drive my car really at all I try to drive it on weekend and some week days to work. At most the car sits for about a week maybe a week and a half. But the winter time the car is stored in my garage from September-February maybe March. Would it be fine sitting through winter with E85 in it? Ethanol is not corrosive like methanol is. You can leave it sit forever without worrying about it eating parts.
#3 last and final thing really is, is there anything I should watch out for when switching? Planning on going with 80lb Deka injectors and a Walbro 450 fuel pump. Everything else is stock. Will probably do a K&N fuel filter when I do the switch.
05-23-2018, 05:05 PM
#7
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If you run E85 use the Stabil for Alcohol fuel, OR use a alcohol fuel lube for storage,, I use Klotz but there are several brands..
Alchohol has roughly 20% less energy than gasoline (Ethanol or Methanol) so
E85 gets real roughly about 85% of 20% less mileage than straight gas.
So if your getting 10 MPG now you'll drop to 8 to 9 MPG.. (Just rough example your tune has way more impact... )
Because of the extra fuel pumped by allowing the timing advance and such, at full power you'll see
Way more torque usually before you see a big HP jump..
As a small example I helped convert a Dwarf car with a 1300 GXR motor from race gas to Methanol,
we had to almost triple the size of the fuel cell to carry enough gas to make the car finish a 20 minute session.
Cylinder head temps dropped in half, We were seeing momentary temps as high as 550 on race gas, (YES thats bad) with the Methanol
we dropped to 175 and had a hard time keeping the engine warm..
On a 45 degree day we had to cover the engine with a blanket to get it warmed up.
Dont run any car on alcohol without getting it fully to temperature, they are 10 times as bad about
condensing moisture and it takes a while to burn it out of the oil. If I was storing a car up for more than a
few weeks I'd flush the fuel system with regular gas and change the oil.. ON race cars I started adding a "T"
on the supply and return with dump valves so I could run the engine over to gas then shut it off with
regular fuel in the lines and injectors, we have bowl drains on all the carved engines to make draining the alcohol easy.
Added a switch to the main pump in the tank so we can turn it off during the flushing process.
Alchohol has roughly 20% less energy than gasoline (Ethanol or Methanol) so
E85 gets real roughly about 85% of 20% less mileage than straight gas.
So if your getting 10 MPG now you'll drop to 8 to 9 MPG.. (Just rough example your tune has way more impact... )
Because of the extra fuel pumped by allowing the timing advance and such, at full power you'll see
Way more torque usually before you see a big HP jump..
As a small example I helped convert a Dwarf car with a 1300 GXR motor from race gas to Methanol,
we had to almost triple the size of the fuel cell to carry enough gas to make the car finish a 20 minute session.
Cylinder head temps dropped in half, We were seeing momentary temps as high as 550 on race gas, (YES thats bad) with the Methanol
we dropped to 175 and had a hard time keeping the engine warm..
On a 45 degree day we had to cover the engine with a blanket to get it warmed up.
Dont run any car on alcohol without getting it fully to temperature, they are 10 times as bad about
condensing moisture and it takes a while to burn it out of the oil. If I was storing a car up for more than a
few weeks I'd flush the fuel system with regular gas and change the oil.. ON race cars I started adding a "T"
on the supply and return with dump valves so I could run the engine over to gas then shut it off with
regular fuel in the lines and injectors, we have bowl drains on all the carved engines to make draining the alcohol easy.
Added a switch to the main pump in the tank so we can turn it off during the flushing process.
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05-23-2018, 05:15 PM
#8
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makes sense. Still haven’t made my decision on it. I want to because it’s literally like 1.50 cheaper a gallon and there a gas station a mile from my house that has it but I also don’t wanna pay the money for injectors fuel pump and another tune if I don’t make any power off it at all
05-23-2018, 06:04 PM
#9
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If you run a methanol adder kit just make sure the car gets a nice long cool down
run to clear the methanol out of the engine before shutting it down,
Methanol + aluminum = massive corrosion if water/vapor is present.
run to clear the methanol out of the engine before shutting it down,
Methanol + aluminum = massive corrosion if water/vapor is present.
05-23-2018, 07:44 PM
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I hear ya man, and the whole fuel injector and fuel pump thing is why I didn't do it myself. I might do meth though since I won't have to touch the pump or injectors. If it were me i'd get it on a dyno and advance the timing bit by bit, see what it does, weather it starts to knock and/or makes more power or not. In my case the most I can run is 26 degrees timing on 93 without knock, but my car wants around 29-30 for peak power, so I'm sure id pick up 20-25 with that and E85. Have you looked into meth kits as well?
05-23-2018, 07:45 PM
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hmm interesting. Never even thought about running a methanol kit so I have no idea what that includes or what it does honestly lol
05-23-2018, 07:54 PM
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well when I went and got it tuned by a different shop the other week the guy did the first pull then after laughed because the shop before had 31 degrees of timing in my car and said that was to much for my setup. I ended with I think 26 degrees somewhere around there. So my car was running on 31 degrees for a good month and it ran fine so maybe if I go E85 we can put more timing in it and make more power
05-23-2018, 09:44 PM
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05-24-2018, 08:18 AM
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You are aware that pump E85 varies pretty significantly from station to station? If you have the car tuned for a specific fuel you'll always have to run that fuel. Testing the fuel at the station. If you don't want to test the ethanol content every time you get gas you're going to need to switch to flex fuel.
05-24-2018, 08:28 AM
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You are aware that pump E85 varies pretty significantly from station to station? If you have the car tuned for a specific fuel you'll always have to run that fuel. Testing the fuel at the station. If you don't want to test the ethanol content every time you get gas you're going to need to switch to flex fuel.
05-24-2018, 02:43 PM
#16
You are aware that pump E85 varies pretty significantly from station to station? If you have the car tuned for a specific fuel you'll always have to run that fuel. Testing the fuel at the station. If you don't want to test the ethanol content every time you get gas you're going to need to switch to flex fuel.
I think the big variation is in the winter. But I'v never purchased and tested in the winter, so maybe not.
05-25-2018, 04:53 PM
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Don't expect the huge gains switching to E85 that some claim. My 13:1 416 with LS9 heads was optimized for high compression and E85 when built but the reality in track testing back to back between E85 and 100 Sunoco was only about .03 change in ET which could be the fuel or just normal track day anomolies.
If the gas tune is optimized at 11:1 compression changing to E85 won't be much benefit unless you are heavily leaning on a power adder. The low cost of E85 will be somewhat offset by much higher fuel consumption.
This is a Drag Week NA street car so E85 vs. hauling race fuel makes economical sense. The car has a Holley HP system with 83lb injectors and yes different AFR and spark trims were tested with each fuel. One thing I noticed about the E85 is that it is not as sensitive to AFR and timing changes as gas is.
I've stored the car for as long as 3 months without touching it in my hot Florida shop with no ill effects to the fuel in the car, jugs, or the fuel system however I run a dehumidifier and always keep the humidity at 50% or lower. The only failures I had was a Holley HP pump that died at 1,500 miles and one Holley injector that gummed up and flow dropped by 20%.
If the gas tune is optimized at 11:1 compression changing to E85 won't be much benefit unless you are heavily leaning on a power adder. The low cost of E85 will be somewhat offset by much higher fuel consumption.
This is a Drag Week NA street car so E85 vs. hauling race fuel makes economical sense. The car has a Holley HP system with 83lb injectors and yes different AFR and spark trims were tested with each fuel. One thing I noticed about the E85 is that it is not as sensitive to AFR and timing changes as gas is.
I've stored the car for as long as 3 months without touching it in my hot Florida shop with no ill effects to the fuel in the car, jugs, or the fuel system however I run a dehumidifier and always keep the humidity at 50% or lower. The only failures I had was a Holley HP pump that died at 1,500 miles and one Holley injector that gummed up and flow dropped by 20%.