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How to run your LS1 on E85
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 411
Likes: 1
From: Louisville KY
A flash tuner is a hand held like A Diablosport Predator or a Super Chips...
I use HPT which is laptop based like EFI Live or LS1 edit. The laptop software lets you tune much much much more stuff and at finer and coarser levels than a hand held. But if you don't have a laptop......
I used a Predator, which I still have, for years before I bought a laptop and HPT. The good thing about the hand held is mine is in the pouch behind the seat if I ever need to switch back to Gas unexpectedly.
I use HPT which is laptop based like EFI Live or LS1 edit. The laptop software lets you tune much much much more stuff and at finer and coarser levels than a hand held. But if you don't have a laptop......
I used a Predator, which I still have, for years before I bought a laptop and HPT. The good thing about the hand held is mine is in the pouch behind the seat if I ever need to switch back to Gas unexpectedly.
Last edited by ericwilloughby; Jun 26, 2010 at 09:22 PM.
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 411
Likes: 1
From: Louisville KY
I was at the track Fri. It took 200 iat, no intercooler, in 3rd gear, A4, 18 degrees timing, 15 pounds boost, E50 fuel mix to get 2 kr. It takes a lot of abuse, more than a N/A car can provide.
No doubt its possible to lean it out with high enough eng temps and compression to make it ping. My experience, with normal engine temps and correct fueling with 11.5-1 static compression......it WONT ping, period. We had 40 deg. of timing cranked to it on my LS1 and all it would do is start making less power.
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I ran my stock short block 11.2:1 and 12psi. @ 26 timing and never had an issue.
I also ran this motor at 8 psi with 42# injectors and a single Walboro on the dyno and showed an AFR of ruffly 13.5:1 and it still didn't knock.
Nor has my new motor @ 13:1 and 8 psi with same timing table.
Now I'm saying wont, but I have never seen it knock.
I also ran this motor at 8 psi with 42# injectors and a single Walboro on the dyno and showed an AFR of ruffly 13.5:1 and it still didn't knock.
Nor has my new motor @ 13:1 and 8 psi with same timing table.
Now I'm saying wont, but I have never seen it knock.
Bump. I have a LM2 wideband installed, can I still read the air/fuel ratio in "AFR" instead of Lambda? Or do I need to change it to Lambda instead of AFR?
Ok so I can do some WOT runs on E85 and if my LM2 says I am at 12.8 AFR then I am good to go w/ E85 (tune it like I am tuning for normal gas)? Or do I need to get it to 8.5 on the LM2 for AFR @ WOT? I am kinda confused. I am going to change my stoich to 9.66 before I start tuning.
I found this on another forum. It's helped me get full understanding to finish my e85 tune.
"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.
However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.
All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.
If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline. "
"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.
However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.
All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.
If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline. "
Last edited by LS1C5Vette; Oct 14, 2010 at 01:04 AM.
no you can read it in a gasoline scaled gauge. you wanna be somewhere between .78-.82 lambda on E85 for max NA power, instead of the ~.87 you'd use for gasoline. 14.7 x .80 = ~11.80:1.
So basically you'll still set your cruise at 14.7 gas a/f = 1.0 lambda = 9.6ish actual a/f. And change your target a/f at wot to 11.80. Then scale your VE table accordingly.
So basically you'll still set your cruise at 14.7 gas a/f = 1.0 lambda = 9.6ish actual a/f. And change your target a/f at wot to 11.80. Then scale your VE table accordingly.
There is a table in the LM2 to switch to E85 so i did that and now I get 9.9 @ cruise in closed loop and 7.9 @ WOT, right where it needs to be, also go it to display in HP Tuners
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 411
Likes: 1
From: Louisville KY
Why does it seem most people are insistent on seeing a "correct" AFR number? Why does anyone care if it reads 7.8 or 12.8 or whatever. Why not just leave it alone and use the numbers for gasoline? Or Lambda. I find it much easier to just read the damn voltage.
Like I said, it took 2 seconds to switch the LM2 in the settings to read the correct afr for E85, why make it harder for my self?
Teching In
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
So what are the benefits to trying this on my bolt-on LS1? Basically just worse gas mileage, or would I actually pick up some power too? I do plan on spraying some nitrous down the road? Is that a no-no with e85? Thanks.
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 411
Likes: 1
From: Louisville KY
On back to back dyno runs I gained 20hp and 30 tq with just pouring E-85 in the tank and adding 5 degrees of timing. You will get %20 worse mileage, but it usually costs %20 less than Premium. E-85 is 105 octane. It would help greatly when spraying nitrous.
I would be very interested in this as E85 NA Info seems to be a little harder to track down. With Milled 243's, BBK SSI, Full Exhaust I decided this would be a good time to start playing with E85. I am running 42lb injectors.
I added 5* across the board and it obviously doesn't knock but feels like I lost a little so I was going to start backing it off.
Either way, thanks for the help so far, just want to get a few more answers for the time being.