WTF @ Moser 12 bolt
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WTF @ Moser 12 bolt I was on the fwy doing about 100 and I was trying to race a LS2 vette. and he braked to exit and so I braked hard to slow down immediately since I was 2 lanes away. so I needed to brake harded to make a 3 lane change vs himmaking a 1 lane change.
Anyhow, when I did this, my car wheelhopped hard at like 90mph to 70mph..
WTF? at moser 12 bolt, even with my 10 bolt this never happened.
I have EBC yellowstuff pads, so its a more agressiev compound than stock.
Anyways, I was wondering if I damaged anything, the car drove okay afterwards, but it sounded like some vibration is going on, or maybe its in my head. I have a loud exhuast so I cant tell if there is a clunking sound or anything, it feels almost as smooth as it did before, with the excepting of some vibration coming from the shifter/trans area. though it could be distrubuted from the rear if I messed up something?
I d k. I went home and checked and saw no leaks under the car, but I am a bot worried if I did anything
the car has a moser 12 bolt, trutrac 3.73s and 33 spline axles.
Also my torque arm bolts keep getting loose, and if they were loose at the time, could that have been a reason for why the wheelhop occured?
its a UMI bodymounted TA with DSL and I have the 3pt SFC..
help pls
Anyhow, when I did this, my car wheelhopped hard at like 90mph to 70mph..
WTF? at moser 12 bolt, even with my 10 bolt this never happened.
I have EBC yellowstuff pads, so its a more agressiev compound than stock.
Anyways, I was wondering if I damaged anything, the car drove okay afterwards, but it sounded like some vibration is going on, or maybe its in my head. I have a loud exhuast so I cant tell if there is a clunking sound or anything, it feels almost as smooth as it did before, with the excepting of some vibration coming from the shifter/trans area. though it could be distrubuted from the rear if I messed up something?
I d k. I went home and checked and saw no leaks under the car, but I am a bot worried if I did anything
the car has a moser 12 bolt, trutrac 3.73s and 33 spline axles.
Also my torque arm bolts keep getting loose, and if they were loose at the time, could that have been a reason for why the wheelhop occured?
its a UMI bodymounted TA with DSL and I have the 3pt SFC..
help pls
jack the car up and and spin the rear wheels by hand and listen for any weird noises. if not, it might be worth your time to still pull the rear cover so you dont destroy anything else such as your carrier. you said about vibration comming from the trans? i wouldnt count that out of the picture either. i would do alittle detective work, before you really get on it again and make sure everything is A, OK.
No offense, but you get angry @ Moser for a wheelhop situation which is generally a sign of something faulty or not set up correctly with the suspension...
Then you go on to say the torque arm bolts keep coming loose...hmmm...I'd say that could be your problem
Also check your lower control arms and their bushings while you're under there. Would you happen to have a lowered vehicle? If so, you may want to also add some relo brackets!
Good luck my friend.
Erik
Then you go on to say the torque arm bolts keep coming loose...hmmm...I'd say that could be your problem
Also check your lower control arms and their bushings while you're under there. Would you happen to have a lowered vehicle? If so, you may want to also add some relo brackets!Good luck my friend.
Erik
Yeah what you described doesnt sound like anything the rear could be causing... Thats either a set up/geometry issue, or faulty/loose parts. Like everyone else said...tighten the bolts, lock-tite them, correct your lower control arm geometry if lowered, and make sure all your bushings are good. Nailing the brakes at 100mph to try to slow down hard puts a lot of force on a lot of parts...and you'll notice issues with those parts that you wouldnt normally notice when stopping from normal speeds.
J.
J.
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From: Pasadena, CA
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
No offense, but you get angry @ Moser for a wheelhop situation which is generally a sign of something faulty or not set up correctly with the suspension...
Then you go on to say the torque arm bolts keep coming loose...hmmm...I'd say that could be your problem Also check your lower control arms and their bushings while you're under there. Would you happen to have a lowered vehicle? If so, you may want to also add some relo brackets!
Good luck my friend.
Erik
Then you go on to say the torque arm bolts keep coming loose...hmmm...I'd say that could be your problem
Also check your lower control arms and their bushings while you're under there. Would you happen to have a lowered vehicle? If so, you may want to also add some relo brackets!Good luck my friend.
Erik
I do happen to have a lowered vehicle.
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From: Pasadena, CA
Originally Posted by Exotic Performance Plus
I would say it was the loose torque arm bolts. We use red loctite on them after cleaning the bolt threads of all shipping oils. Bob
Also now that I think of it I may have stripped a crossmember bolt the last time I was tightening my bolts.
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From: Pasadena, CA
Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
Yeah what you described doesnt sound like anything the rear could be causing... Thats either a set up/geometry issue, or faulty/loose parts. Like everyone else said...tighten the bolts, lock-tite them, correct your lower control arm geometry if lowered, and make sure all your bushings are good. Nailing the brakes at 100mph to try to slow down hard puts a lot of force on a lot of parts...and you'll notice issues with those parts that you wouldnt normally notice when stopping from normal speeds.
J.
J.
I loctited them, they still were loose 2 weeks later after i took it to the drag strip.
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Its lookin like its saftey wire time.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
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From: Pasadena, CA
Originally Posted by chicane
Its lookin like its saftey wire time.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
Also why does anyone make 4 link setups for our cars? and are they heavier?
youre first problem is that you have a 12 bolt instead of a 9in, lol
The wheelhop happens when you lock the rear wheels up trying to slow down at speed. Its caused by the shortened torque arm. It will also happen if you spin the tires in reverse (not recommending this, but it happened to me once when i was trying to back up a hill.) As soon as i put my UMI piece in, this started happening to me. Its never hurt anything on my car the few times its happened to me though. Ive heard from roadracers that they dont like the short torque arms exactly for this reason, since it would happen to them alot more often.
my TA bolts always came loose in my 12 bolt too, safety wire would work.
The wheelhop happens when you lock the rear wheels up trying to slow down at speed. Its caused by the shortened torque arm. It will also happen if you spin the tires in reverse (not recommending this, but it happened to me once when i was trying to back up a hill.) As soon as i put my UMI piece in, this started happening to me. Its never hurt anything on my car the few times its happened to me though. Ive heard from roadracers that they dont like the short torque arms exactly for this reason, since it would happen to them alot more often.
my TA bolts always came loose in my 12 bolt too, safety wire would work.
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Originally Posted by 02NBMWS6
youre first problem is that you have a 12 bolt instead of a 9in, lol
The wheelhop happens when you lock the rear wheels up trying to slow down at speed. Its caused by the shortened torque arm. It will also happen if you spin the tires in reverse (not recommending this, but it happened to me once when i was trying to back up a hill.) As soon as i put my UMI piece in, -this started happening to me. Its never hurt anything on my car the few times its happened to me though. Ive heard from roadracers that they dont like the short torque arms exactly for this reason, since it would happen to them alot more often.
my TA bolts always came loose in my 12 bolt too, safety wire would work.
The wheelhop happens when you lock the rear wheels up trying to slow down at speed. Its caused by the shortened torque arm. It will also happen if you spin the tires in reverse (not recommending this, but it happened to me once when i was trying to back up a hill.) As soon as i put my UMI piece in, -this started happening to me. Its never hurt anything on my car the few times its happened to me though. Ive heard from roadracers that they dont like the short torque arms exactly for this reason, since it would happen to them alot more often.
my TA bolts always came loose in my 12 bolt too, safety wire would work.
Ive had nothing but problems...
-I have howling during 40-50mph.
-wheelhop on 1st gear when I had bald nittos and a stock torque arm at the time. and when I punched it, the rear would wheelhop, even with the 10 bolt this never happened... but ever since I have fresh nittos or on M/t et streets radials or slicks, this hasnt happened.
-incorrect geometry of suspension, only after the 12 bolt was installed.
-clunking after the new TA/SFC/H pipe setup was installed and cant put my finger on where the clunking is from.
-also wheelhop during hard braking, but Im sure its from the loose TA, since when it was tightened it didnt wheelhop on hard braking... after a few hard launches/clutch dumps, teh wheelhop was more significant and Im sure its due to the bolts coming loose after the launches.
-Plus clunking from 1-4 upshifts when done quickly(whichis how I alsways drove when I had my 10 bolt, stock TA)
(12 bolt was ran with the stock TA for a good month before aftermarket TA was installed, cluncking was after TA/SFC and exhuast setup was changed, as already mentioned.
Is there anywherre I can take to get my car inspected in the So Cal area. 626 area?
I take it to local shops but nothing high performance that inspects suspension or anything. the only guy I know is Strano and he is on the east coast.
I dont think a 9 inch would solve all these issues, would it? Im serious, my car hasnt felt as good ever since my 12 bolt went on.. and anything after that has been more hell...
best setup was with LM, ory, Lts and Lid.
I liked the handling after the konis, strano springs and swaybar, also LCA and PHB. but my only issue i had was how it scraped everywhere with that.
other than that my car handles like a dream. but drag performance was altered, since I coulndt launch the car anymore, especially after the LS7 clutch and aluminum FW.
I passed on the Moser 12 bolt specifically because of the badly engineered TA mounting scheme. In my opinion it was a bad call to mount the TA that way.
And I am ready for all the Moser lovers out there to defend thier pride and joy, except for the original poster who seems to be seeing things the way I do. My Strange 12 bolt has been golden so far and I bought it used.
Your going to have to safety wire those bolts in place if red loctite is not solving the problem.
And I am ready for all the Moser lovers out there to defend thier pride and joy, except for the original poster who seems to be seeing things the way I do. My Strange 12 bolt has been golden so far and I bought it used.
Your going to have to safety wire those bolts in place if red loctite is not solving the problem.
Originally Posted by chicane
Its lookin like its saftey wire time.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
Replace the bolts and nuts with appropriate saftey wire fastners... clean and torque... thread a little safteywire through them and call it a day.
It may also be a valving issue... if its not the majority of the problem, it will be related to it anyway. Besides... the tq arm 3 link has always had this issue dated back to 1984 and it was never properly addressed, or fixed. The geometry, bushing material and ridigity (or lack there-of) are all contributors.
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I am a Moser owner and you will not see any irrational defense just based on my buying decision.
At the time I bought it, it was the best choice.
Do I think they could have done some things better or disseminated more accurate information - yes.
Since that purchase they have sold me another set of gears (IMO) knowing full well that my issue would NOT be solved by that sale.
My Richmonds howl and I fully expect the Motives to as well because the root problem IS NOT the gear manufacturer.
The root problem is a compilation of problems all adding up to - noise.
The torque arm (hollow tubular steel) mounted to a hollow pumpkin and then bolted to more hollow box steel (SFC) ALL under a big hollow drum which is under the most acoustically reflective material possible (Glass)
How could it not make noise. All I would say to anyone contemplating heavily modding their car is - go into it knowing the downsides and do not expect your car to be the miracle car that won't have these issues.
Fortunately in my case, the car gets driven very rarely and just for kicks then it gets returned to the garage until next time.
If I had to drive it regularly - it would have been sold long ago.
At the time I bought it, it was the best choice.
Do I think they could have done some things better or disseminated more accurate information - yes.
Since that purchase they have sold me another set of gears (IMO) knowing full well that my issue would NOT be solved by that sale.
My Richmonds howl and I fully expect the Motives to as well because the root problem IS NOT the gear manufacturer.
The root problem is a compilation of problems all adding up to - noise.
The torque arm (hollow tubular steel) mounted to a hollow pumpkin and then bolted to more hollow box steel (SFC) ALL under a big hollow drum which is under the most acoustically reflective material possible (Glass)
How could it not make noise. All I would say to anyone contemplating heavily modding their car is - go into it knowing the downsides and do not expect your car to be the miracle car that won't have these issues.
Fortunately in my case, the car gets driven very rarely and just for kicks then it gets returned to the garage until next time.
If I had to drive it regularly - it would have been sold long ago.
A couple points of clarification:
Mine does this too. Won't argue there.
Wheel hop is more a function of improper geometry than of the rearend itself.
Did you have lower control arm relocation brackets on your 10-bolt? Do you have them on your 12-bolt? If you're lowered, you have to correct the geometry. It's very likely it was incorrect before the 12-bolt was installed, but you didn't notice it. Or maybe you're punching it harder now that you know you've got a 12-bolt and the problem is worse.
Can't help you there.
You're probably right. I don't like the TA mount design either, but it has become something I check at every oil change now.
Hard to say where that's coming from. Could be the rearend. Could be driveshaft vibration. Could be the torque arm. Is it a tans-mounted or floorpan mounted arm? Floorpan mounted torque arms make quite a bit more noise, from everything I've read.
I doubt it. I'll explain why in a minute.
Based on what? Ride comfort? Track numbers?
Yes, those are great mods for handling. A 12-bolt is not.
What you're seeing is what a lot of people see, including me. A 12-bolt will make the car totally different. Why? Unsprung weight. It's as simple as that. You've just added a LOT more weight to the car that isn't supported by the springs. I countered my issues by adjusting my shocks (Koni SA's) and buying lighter wheels. Still, I have some clunking and howling issues that I'm going to have looked at, as soon as I have the time. As you're well aware, when you start modifying one thing on the suspension, it alters the performance of everything else. So you had everything dialed in with your stock 10-bolt, then added a bunch of weight and threw your ride height off by 0.5" (more or less) due to the axle tubes being bigger.
I would start with LCA relocation brackets, then make sure everything is good and centered. Check your pinion angle and your thrust angle. And if you're running a floorpan mounted torque arm, it will improve your launches, but transmits more vibration directly to the body and therefore, you feel it more.
My 12-bolt is definitely a trade-off. I can't say I regret it, but there are times I miss the quiet I had with my 10-bolt.
-Mike
Originally Posted by LSGunZ28
a Moser 12 bolt is a retarded investment IMO then..
Ive had nothing but problems...
-I have howling during 40-50mph.
Ive had nothing but problems...
-I have howling during 40-50mph.
-wheelhop on 1st gear when I had bald nittos and a stock torque arm at the time. and when I punched it, the rear would wheelhop, even with the 10 bolt this never happened... but ever since I have fresh nittos or on M/t et streets radials or slicks, this hasnt happened.
-incorrect geometry of suspension, only after the 12 bolt was installed.
-clunking after the new TA/SFC/H pipe setup was installed and cant put my finger on where the clunking is from.
-also wheelhop during hard braking, but Im sure its from the loose TA, since when it was tightened it didnt wheelhop on hard braking... after a few hard launches/clutch dumps, teh wheelhop was more significant and Im sure its due to the bolts coming loose after the launches.
-Plus clunking from 1-4 upshifts when done quickly(whichis how I alsways drove when I had my 10 bolt, stock TA)
I dont think a 9 inch would solve all these issues, would it? Im serious, my car hasnt felt as good ever since my 12 bolt went on.. and anything after that has been more hell...
best setup was with LM, ory, Lts and Lid.
I liked the handling after the konis, strano springs and swaybar, also LCA and PHB. but my only issue i had was how it scraped everywhere with that.
other than that my car handles like a dream. but drag performance was altered, since I coulndt launch the car anymore, especially after the LS7 clutch and aluminum FW.
I would start with LCA relocation brackets, then make sure everything is good and centered. Check your pinion angle and your thrust angle. And if you're running a floorpan mounted torque arm, it will improve your launches, but transmits more vibration directly to the body and therefore, you feel it more.
My 12-bolt is definitely a trade-off. I can't say I regret it, but there are times I miss the quiet I had with my 10-bolt.
-Mike
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From: Pasadena, CA
Originally Posted by chupr0kabra
A couple points of clarification:
Mine does this too. Won't argue there.
Wheel hop is more a function of improper geometry than of the rearend itself.
Did you have lower control arm relocation brackets on your 10-bolt? Do you have them on your 12-bolt? If you're lowered, you have to correct the geometry. It's very likely it was incorrect before the 12-bolt was installed, but you didn't notice it. Or maybe you're punching it harder now that you know you've got a 12-bolt and the problem is worse.
Can't help you there.
You're probably right. I don't like the TA mount design either, but it has become something I check at every oil change now.
Hard to say where that's coming from. Could be the rearend. Could be driveshaft vibration. Could be the torque arm. Is it a tans-mounted or floorpan mounted arm? Floorpan mounted torque arms make quite a bit more noise, from everything I've read.
I doubt it. I'll explain why in a minute.
Based on what? Ride comfort? Track numbers?
Yes, those are great mods for handling. A 12-bolt is not.
What you're seeing is what a lot of people see, including me. A 12-bolt will make the car totally different. Why? Unsprung weight. It's as simple as that. You've just added a LOT more weight to the car that isn't supported by the springs. I countered my issues by adjusting my shocks (Koni SA's) and buying lighter wheels. Still, I have some clunking and howling issues that I'm going to have looked at, as soon as I have the time. As you're well aware, when you start modifying one thing on the suspension, it alters the performance of everything else. So you had everything dialed in with your stock 10-bolt, then added a bunch of weight and threw your ride height off by 0.5" (more or less) due to the axle tubes being bigger.
I would start with LCA relocation brackets, then make sure everything is good and centered. Check your pinion angle and your thrust angle. And if you're running a floorpan mounted torque arm, it will improve your launches, but transmits more vibration directly to the body and therefore, you feel it more.
My 12-bolt is definitely a trade-off. I can't say I regret it, but there are times I miss the quiet I had with my 10-bolt.
-Mike
Mine does this too. Won't argue there.
Wheel hop is more a function of improper geometry than of the rearend itself.
Did you have lower control arm relocation brackets on your 10-bolt? Do you have them on your 12-bolt? If you're lowered, you have to correct the geometry. It's very likely it was incorrect before the 12-bolt was installed, but you didn't notice it. Or maybe you're punching it harder now that you know you've got a 12-bolt and the problem is worse.
Can't help you there.
You're probably right. I don't like the TA mount design either, but it has become something I check at every oil change now.
Hard to say where that's coming from. Could be the rearend. Could be driveshaft vibration. Could be the torque arm. Is it a tans-mounted or floorpan mounted arm? Floorpan mounted torque arms make quite a bit more noise, from everything I've read.
I doubt it. I'll explain why in a minute.
Based on what? Ride comfort? Track numbers?
Yes, those are great mods for handling. A 12-bolt is not.
What you're seeing is what a lot of people see, including me. A 12-bolt will make the car totally different. Why? Unsprung weight. It's as simple as that. You've just added a LOT more weight to the car that isn't supported by the springs. I countered my issues by adjusting my shocks (Koni SA's) and buying lighter wheels. Still, I have some clunking and howling issues that I'm going to have looked at, as soon as I have the time. As you're well aware, when you start modifying one thing on the suspension, it alters the performance of everything else. So you had everything dialed in with your stock 10-bolt, then added a bunch of weight and threw your ride height off by 0.5" (more or less) due to the axle tubes being bigger.
I would start with LCA relocation brackets, then make sure everything is good and centered. Check your pinion angle and your thrust angle. And if you're running a floorpan mounted torque arm, it will improve your launches, but transmits more vibration directly to the body and therefore, you feel it more.
My 12-bolt is definitely a trade-off. I can't say I regret it, but there are times I miss the quiet I had with my 10-bolt.
-Mike
I dont doubt I have geometry issues
I hav a floor mounted TA and bolt in SFCs ( not welded yet!)
I dunno my pinion angle or thrust angle Ive just assumed its fine, since it didnt eat up my rearend yet.
I really wish they made beefy 10 bolts a reality for once!
that was the best setup based on handling and even comfort, at least better than it was before. an it was very predicatble and stable. now I dunno the cars limits.