68Goatboy

iTrader: (1)

as for the car, theyre going to make something that is a lot of fun and exciting to drive for those looking for something thats pretty fsat compared to the competition and looks great. the new 5.7 hemi will be 380hp in the ram and probably around the same for the chally. the new 5liter stang should be around 350hp, so the normal V8 production camaro will be somewhere around there.

and lets not ignore the soon to be new entrant in the pony car wars. that new hyundai thats a 300hp V6 and RWD and will sell for 24,000. hows that for exciting

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I don't think the interior is THAT bad. I've had 4 different 4th gens over the course of the last 9+ years, and I don't see anything wrong with the 4th gen Camaro interior quality compared to other cars of it's era and price range. But it's not fair to compare an interior designed in 1997 to one in a brand new car today. Nor would it be fair to compare a late '90s Camaro interior to a late '90s Cadillac. Camaro's closest competition is the Mustang, and there is nothing about the '98-'02 Mustang interior that's any better quality than a Camaro of the same era. Some people might like the seating position better in the Mustang, but I actually prefer the F-body seating. Passenger floor hump means nothing to me. I like to drive my cars, not ride in them.

As for window motors and spark plugs, how can you possibily know how long a window motor will last on a car that nobody owns yet? Or what plug changes will be like on a car who's engine hasn't been announced yet? Plug changes on a 4th gen don't require a lift. I've done all mine on the ground within a couple hours at worst. Sometimes 45-60mins.

Ya know, I agree with your general concept that the 5th gen should be a better car than the 4th gen, and should still be affordable. But that's just common progress - any new generation of car should exceede it's predecessor. But I don't think that's a reason to belittle a car that was released (in it's final revision) 10 years ago. I mean, can you name me a car that was a better performer for the money during the '98-'02 years? I sure can't. And I know that looks are subjective, but IMO there wasn't a better looking performance car than Camaros and Firebirds during that era either. As for today, it's just not a fair comparasion to put 1998 quality and tech aganist 2010; not to mention, having an older car does have many appeals to a hobbiest. I think both cars would/will be great to own.

The affordable part is where I deviate from many here. I don't expect a V8 Camaro for $25k. It's not realistic for 2010 dollars. I think somewhere around $30-32k with common/popular options would be fair. Maybe they could offer a stripper model for $28-29k with a V8, but that's probably not a car many people would buy. Most want leather, upgrade audio, chrome wheels, etc.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Open your eyes?? That might be a good suggestion for yourself. It takes a big man to point the finger at the idea of US workers demanding life essentials and blame them for the overinflated costs to those essentials instead of the corporations that raised those costs

Most wieght on there shoulders and yet if they cost the company millions they get a pay raise for there trouble. I still would like to see a copy of that contract book between Toyota/UAW that proves your case.

Well I guess we'll call the 2011 plant closings closing the doors of happy times

Communist?? as opposed to facism which is the domination of government by business which you appear to favor. And I dont seem to recall saying I was against GM profiting rather against repeating te same temporary solutions that havent helped before. But I hope you a ol' George W. keep on fighting strong with the economic idealism its really doing wonders for us now.

MavrikTA

iTrader: (27)

Damn, could yall PLEASE get back on topic! Start a Poll for/against Unions or something if it is that important.
I agree with RPM WS6.
#1. I am sick of hearing people bitch about the interior of 4th gens...wtf was so sub-standard about it? Yes, there was alot of plastic, but the Mustang was too. Only difference being two tone interiors. In order to get a modern, high tech, '**** pit' like feel for the 4th gens, that was the only way to do it. You couldnt do it with plush satin and crushed velvet... and, likewise I agree about all the whinning regarding the 'hump'...who gives a crap? Is it effecting "your" 1/4mile times? Adding weight? In the way of the shifter? No. Its just looking for trivial things to squal over.
#2. The spark plug thing...very true. That was a horrible design. But there is nothing to say that the 5th gen will be ANY BETTER.
#3. If you note all that GM has disclaimed is that the car will be kept "affordable". Define affordable...its all a matter of perception(and income) which varies GREATLY accross the board. Im sorry, but affordable does not mean in the $20s for a V8. That is a pipe dream.
GMs defenition of "affordable" is always higher than the competitions,(often times due to quality) justieabley.
Your going to be looking at $29-31K for a stripped down V8
and,
$33-36K for a WS6/SS equivelant.

CaseyEaterMach1

That makes lots of sense to me as well and it is not that far of the prices of the 4th gens from 98 on a SS or WS6 cost around 30 and if the 4th gens were still around today those models would probably cost around 35 or so. Interior complaints are pure bullshit in my book personally I have no problems with the interior of the 4th gens they were fine to me (yea the GTO's are nice but it’s not like I'd not get a car because it wasn't at that level). Plus, I'd say the 99-04 mustangs and the 98-02 f-bodies interiors were equal and guess what the interior didn't kill the mustangs sales that is for sure.

Hydramatic

GM did not say "affordable", they said "priced competitively with the Mustang GT this time around" that means ~$25k for a V8. You've got to keep it into perspective, guys. The F-body isn't on it's own exclusive platform anymore, so economies of scale will keep the prices down on the car. The Zeta platform cars will only get more affordable as the Camaro, G8, and Ute go into serious production. Did I mention that the benefit of using the iron-block "truck" L76 means that it also shares transmissions and engines with THAT segment as well? ~$25k is absolutely plausible for GM to pull off when those factors are taken into consideration.

It will also help if you don't buy leather, racing stripes, 22" wheels, and navigation....lol

Oh yeah, the L76 is much less expensive to produce than the LS3, but that should come as common knowledge on this board. The engine is little more expensive, if any, than the rest of the LS-truck line of V8s, not to mention it's build quality is already honed to a point where engine problems are out of the picture.

It's not impossible to imagine a true Mustang-competitor actually coming to markey.

68Goatboy

iTrader: (1)

ive gotten compliments about how nice the is actually. and while it does have its quirks, its pretty damn good compared with what else was around at the time and for me, everything is layed out perfectly to add to the driving pleasure.

as for "competitively priced", that in no way means 430 hp for 25K.
more likely it means V6 priced around mustang V6. 350hp mustang and 364hp camaro priced around the same, then ls3 camaro priced around SRT8 chally (38K), and LS7/9 camaro priced around shelby mustang. to me that seams like a reasonable and competitve price structure

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Damn right. More people need to understand this.

lordlang

This car was a stupid idea. Its ugly and dumb. If I ever see one on the road i'll poop on it.

venomhp

iTrader: (13)

^^and then the owner would shoot you

lordlang

Well then he'd have an even bigger mess to clean up wouldn't he? Has your car got pooped on before? It sounds like it has...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Extremely immature.

If this is how you plan to post on this site, please don't post here any longer.

Thanks.
TECH Staff.

Dan

iTrader: (1)

I think the interior of my 99 30th Anniversary is nicer than most, that's just my opinion.

nanokpsi

Was your 4th gen "weak" when you bought it? Seems to me it may weigh 400lbs less, but it probably had atleast 40 less hp too. Stop crying. Bolt on performance parts will also go farhter on the bigger motor. If you want to keep you old 4th gen, go ahead. Since they are anticipating selling a large number of v8 cars, the extra expense of the AL motor wasn't justified, especially when you consider that the truly performance oriented people will opt for the FI car, if they offer it.

nanokpsi

First of all, very good post. Second of all, since you mention the 31k challenger, People need to remember those cars are even heaver, as in over 4100lbs. On top of that, the l76 makes similar numbers to the hemi in teh Charger (which will be in the challenger). I doubt the vvt will make it into the challenger untill the SRT model gets a bump in power, in order to preserve the performance distance between the models.

Akira_X

Some of it makes sense but I still have to disagree on some stuff.

I'm not saying the L76 isn't a good engine or that it couldn't power the 5th gen, but I am saying it's unlikely.

I'm not questioning the handling of the new camaro nor the weight of the engine, either engine will do fine that's not the issue.

I honestly don't know where your getting this mustang price tag man, I have never seen a new mustang gt go for anything at dealer less than 28k the average price is around 32k. The camaro is going to directly compete with the mustang AS WELL as the challenger. The challenger already has a price tag of around 32k right around where the GT is, expect the v8 camaro to be around the same. Your not going to find many 300+horse power cars for under 28 grand, look at the evo, sti, g37, 350z etc. You can find many of these cars USED for the price you listed, but a brand new same year car not a chance in hell

You talk about the L76 killing the GT, is it even necessary? The Base camaro is supposedly packing a v6 that has 280 hp or so I've been hearing. For the same price as a v6 stang that already kills the Gt imho which is 8 grand more for 20 to 40 more hp.

LS3 just seems a lot more probable, Gm had a lot more money when the intermediate cars were available times have changed, and Gm isn't top dog anymore. It's just not cost effective to do something like that any more. I mean that means when they have an SS there will be FOUR different types of Camaros, I don't know about you but that's a bit farfetched for me to believe.

The V6 will be the highest production model compete with the v6 mustangs and challengers, v8 will compete with the v8 stang and challenger and if they do make an SS with a different engine type it will likely compete with the gt500 but I wouldn't hold my breath on that...

Hydramatic

I respectively disagree with you!

A Mustang GT can READILY be ordered for mid-$20k's any day of the week, even without incentives, which just make it easier. Here's a Mustang GT I just built on Fords website, no incentives applied(even though some are available for my area...)

http://www54.forddirect.fordvehicles...sh&statetoken=

As you can clearly see, the Grand Total is $26,825. I think that qualifies in the 300hp below $30K mark, don't you? That is the pricepoint Camaro needs to meet in order to competitively rival the Mustang. I believe this is possible because, although many of the Mustang's components are less-expensive old-tech, the Camaro will be built on the Zeta platform, which, with all vehicles built on it combined, will total many times what the Stang sells yearly. This introduces bulk-buy prices on anything shareable between GM models on this and other similar RWD platforms. Since the demise of the Lincoln LS and Thunderbird, I don't believe there are any other cars built on the Mustang platform(someone correct me please...)

Another thing that might help with understanding my position is keeping track of current events and news in the automotive world. Now I know not everyone can know everything, everytime, about all things automotive, so I'm gonna explain it to you...In a way the automotive world is like a chess game in that you have to think several moves ahead or you'll find yourself behind the curve.

The Mustang GT will NOT have merely a 300hp V8 when the refresh comes in a year or so. The target is closer to 350hp, which would handily shut down a 3.6L DOHC six, sorry to burst your bubble. That Mustang will sell at the same price as the current GT, so ~350-375hp is what the base V8 in the Camaro should offer at that price point.

This is convenient in that the G8, Ute, hopefully the Impala, and many foreign GM vehicles have the splendid L76 that just so happens to fill that requirement perfectly. Those are the intermediate and fullsizers that you speak of that are "gone" from the market. They aren't gone, you just don't recognize them.

Like I've said before a thousand or so times, the LS3 is a mis-match for the Mustang GT-esque pricing scheme, as well as the Mustang's projected power delivery. I don't care what anybody says, the magazines aren't going to call a test between a 350hp Mustang and a 435hp Camaro an even match, sorry!

Yes, that would certainly mean that an LS3 base-V8 Camaro would outclass a GT(durrrrhhhh), but it would also cost you much more than the Mustang, something GM is adamant about fixing this time around. That means anything that isn't going to be shared with Zeta platformates is going to be a special-edition-only affair or more expensive in the MSRP.

To sum it up, it makes sense for GM to use the L76, at least until something better comes along for the money.

68Goatboy

iTrader: (1)

GM gives us an f-bod for one generation with the only option being the corvette engine for a V8 and people think this is the way it should be to make a competitve vehicle. thats one of the things that helped kill the fbod back in 02 because it was so much more expensive than the average V8 competition.

would it be nice to have the crem de la creme for a base V8? hells yeah, but then they'd have to be pricing it up around the SRT8 chally which is going to have a sticker of 37,500! definately not average mustang territory

perspective is a powerful thing

thats enough of a rant for now

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

No wonder they are so popular. I just looked for about 2 minutes and found a Black GT 5 speed 1 mile away from my house for $26,830, plus they are offering $1,500 customer cash, so $25,330.

Anyway, I still think a aluminum 5.3 as the base V8 is the best idea. They come with good heads now and are used in trucks already. Just need a car intake (LS2 or preferably a LS6 with a 90mm inlet) and everything else would be the same as any other Gen IV engine. I also think they are underrated at 315hp plus tey are available with flex fuel and have DOD. They do 19 hwy in a 4x4 truck, so I would think they could get near 30 in a much lighter car with a lot less drivetrain loss. A minor cam change and you could be at 330 or so.

WECIV

Camaro must have a 25k V8, period. You can buy brand new GT Stangs all day for 25k.

W