RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There is no way that GM is going to be able to change the image of a car called Camaro. That name was the very definition of affordable GM performance/muscle for 35 years, and is still recent in peoples' minds. It has NEVER been known as a super efficent, eco-friendly car. Do you really think that a tree hugging, dolphin kissing, homo-green person is going to even look twice at a car called Camaro? I can understand the idea behind offering an efficent V6 for people that can't/don't want to afford the V8 gas needs, but you'll NEVER be able to market this car to the leftist nutjobs with a name like Camaro, regardless of what engine is under the hood.

If they wanted an econo-performance car, they should have picked a different name. Maybe something totally new. The whole idea behind picking the Camaro name was to peak the interests of people that actually like what that name has stood for over the years.

nine-eight

iTrader: (7)

I feel the era of the second muscle car boom coming to a close......



Nine-Eight

Hydramatic

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I think they sound VERY NICE as far as 4-cylinders go. I'd drive one....


And we all know that the biggest travesty ever to happen to the Camaro was the Iron Duke 2.5L four cylinder that it got in the early eighties....~70hp *shudders* A 260hp ecotec turbo looks damn fast compared to that ****!

I just don't understand why people would be opposed to such a cool little motor being the base model...Is it because it would be quite possibly the best matched engine to the car? Think about it, the rest of the car is built to withstand the abuse from sixes and eights, so a four cylinder with a hint of turbo lag would be nothing. The car could take ANYTHING you could throw at it! Wheel hop? please... Just think of the wieght savings too! It would have a nearly 50/50 weight bias! Top it all off with a spacious engine compartment and cheaper upkeep and insurance costs...how could you go wrong? It almost sounds like a formula for a new Z/28...

TriShield

The GM's turbo four cylinder will have to be caned, strained, and boosted constantly to move a big beast like the Camaro, and at the end of the day it will use nearly as much fuel as the V8. The irony of low-end muscle cars is that they all use nearly as much fuel as the V8 models. This is about as poor and engine and car pairing as it gets.

Basically it sounds like GM is going to try and "greenwash" this car which will fail miserably. Everyone in America knows what the Camaro stands for and putting a four cylinder in it isn't going to attract anyone looking for a "green" car. It is going to be a pox on the car's image and **** off it's legions of fans, namely you guys.

Hydramatic

?

Did a turbo four **** off the Thunderbird guys when it was out-doing the anemic 5.0 that came standard? I don't think so! Those almost kept up with the lighter fox-body Mustang GT's with the 302 HO...

You're missing the benefits of a turbo four...it's lightweight...

Look, I've seen the stats for the V6 Challenger. It's going to weigh in at 3700lbs! That's 400 less than the V8! Expect that kind of difference between the V8 and V6 Camaros, then take off about another 75 lbs for the turbo four. That means that if GM put the turbo four into the Camaro base model, it would be outrunning, out-turning, and out-styling not only the base model Mustang, but also the New Edge GT's! You're an idiot if you think it will make the car look bad!


And that's just for the BASE MODEL!

Keep in mind, GM has to make that base model as attractive as possible as inexpensively as possible. We aren't going to get V8's in $20K cars...SORRY. A ~3400lb Camaro putting out 260hp doesn't sound bad to me for a car that's supposed to sell for around $20k...

Seriously, some of ya'll need to wake up and smell the 20th century...every time someone even mentions a smallish engine in the lower trim Camaros, people have heart attacks and think their beloved V8 is suddenly not going to be in the mix. The day the Camaro loses it's V8 option is the day the car dies. Got it? GM will keep the eight in it, at LEAST in upper trims levels, as long as possible, and when it is no longer possible, they will ax the car and start calling the turbo-six Hydrogen cars Novas....

Once again, in case someone didn't get it the first time....

V8s WILL ALWAYS BE IN THE CAMARO

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

all this green talk will be the end of the 5th gen. camaro
im starting to regret selling my 4th gen cars, i may have pulled the trigger to early

darkcrave

I dont like the sounds that the I4 or V6 Makes, but you know what.... I really dont care.... Because im getting the V8 So i doesent matter to meeeeeeeeeeeee... so why are you all tripping if you are doing the same?

Dan

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, But I think the cheapest model, be it a Turbo 4 or 6 is going to be mid to high 20's on price & mid to high 30's for the premium V8..I think you need to wake up & smell the 20th Century. The days of a cheaply priced Camaro are gone..1st GM said the car would be competitive in price to the Stang. That theory was thrown out the window with what Lutz the Putz said.

LS1vazquez

Inline 4's, V6's and V8s, I say bring it all on.

It would be great to have some variety in that car.

Hydramatic

And how do you think that is going to work out for sales? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Why would the Camaro be priced identically to the Pontiac G8 which not only is a four door SEDAN(more car=more money), but it is a rank higher in the corporate echelon as a Pontiac(it's a nicer car overall)? Let's not even get into the fact that GM will never sell 100K $25K+ coupes in America under one nameplate...

Seriously, I've worked out so many scenarios for this car in my head it's sickening. I've thought about nearly every engine/price combo you can think of and some you haven't. There are things that will work with this car and things that won't, and trying to tag a "premium" on a car that is supposed to move units is corporate suicide. The young are the target audience with this car, and young people are barely able to afford a $20k car, much less anything that's $25K+! GM might as well call it all off if they try to sell the base model for what Ford sells their GT trim at...The number crunchers will not allow this car to fail. GM can't afford it at this stage of the game...


You need to think before you type, my friend.

ZV8

iTrader: (2)

If they plan on puting the I4 ecotec engine in, I hope they plan to reduce weight to it, it needs to weight less than 3klbs if they want it to get good gas mileage and be able to move it respectivly. I think they will just release the v6 with flex fuel tech on it for the base model to get that green look they want, a turbo just adds too much complication to a base model, i mean how many bottom of the barrel base models have turbo's? other than diesels? now what they could surprise people with would be the turbo or supercharged V6's like in the 80's with the 3.8L trans am and grand national! and call that the Z28 and also be flex fuel available, just think v6 turbo running with E85 (105octane!) Then the SS would be the V8(LS3?) with flex fuel too. Ford is even talking about going to turbo or supercharged V6's for their mustangs already too.

20SS07

Anyone know what V6 is gonna be in? The regular 3.6 or the direct injected 3.6 that's in the CTS? That engine would be pretty sweet in there with 306hp. That wouldn't be a bad engine line up. 2.0L turbo with 260hp, 3.6L V6 with 306 hp and then your LS3 with 400+. Most of the sales are probably gonna be of V6 models and if it had the DI 3.6L that would spank all the V6 Challengers and Mustangs out there.

Awake455

The way I see it, Mustang has survived because of at least 2 things. First, Ford marketed it superbly and successfully. Second, they sell enough V6 commuter cars to keep the V8 versions in the showroom. IIRC over 80% of Mustang sales are V6 models.

IF GM was trying to field something which would sell and be successful against the Mustang it would have to do everything the V6 Mustang does competitively.
It would have to appeal to those out there who want a 2 door coupe.
It would have to take them back to the days of the pony cars when they were young.
It would have to be a roomy commuter car with plenty of room, be user friendly, offer easy entry/exit, and have room for stuff.
It would have to have a peppy V6 that gets equal if not better mileage than the Mustang. These buyers have their reasons, however arguably warped they are, for not wanting a V8...and there is no reasoning with them. I have tried.

So, let's see how GM is doing.
It is a retro version of a pony car, check.
It is a 2 door commuter car, check.
Space, convenience, ease of use, fuel economy and comfort remain to be seen.
Competitive price....oops.

The overwhelming majority of consumers have a pesky tendency that GM is overlooking. When given the option of buying a tshirt for $10 and essentially the same tshirt right next to it for $15, guess what....the $10 tshirt sells while the $15 tshirt does not.

Sorry, what GM is doing here is offering the same thing as the Mustang...but with a premium price increase over the Mustang. There is little brand loyalty out there anymore, and even the loyalists are going to have to go against common sense and good fiscal judgement to buy a Camaro. Add in the new carline jitters...the prudent fear of any first year of a GM product. Agree or dispute this, ya hafta admit that the notion of first year GM products being nightmarish is deeply embedded into the collective automotobile buyer's mind. Too little to late for the retro craze so the car must stand squarely on its offerings compared to the competition. In this aspect it looks destined to be a complete and total failure from the start.

Also, someone else said it before, I will say it again. I don't see the Ecotec turbo variant getting better mileage than the V6...it will be working too damn hard to pull a car that heavy. It's a heavy brick...it will take a lot of torque to haul its heavy butt around. I could be wrong on this but I don't see how it would get even 2 mpg better unless they could get the curb weight below 3000.

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

The curb weight should be around 3000lbs but it won't be. Stupid crash standards

Awake455

Don't forget to blame the auto buying public for wanting solid vehicles, all the features & amenities, and a smooth & quiet ride....and GM's inability to do any of the above in a vehicle of this size & keep it even remotely lightweight...unless they also put the name Corvette on it.

Brewski

iTrader: (1)

I'd have to agree with this line of thinking. My guess is the Camaro and the Challenger V8 models will be competitively priced against one an other but both GM and Chrysler will be happy to ignor trying to compete with the V8 mustang. (Doh hadn't seen Lutz's quote yet but sounds like a position they're not going to move from)

My guess is the V8 Challenger and Camaro will be considered enthusiasts cars and as such the need for a lower end (Z/28 model) will be eliminated and replaced with a V6 model.

Aside from the green image aspect my guess is both the Challenger and the Camaro V8 models will outperform the V8 model mustang so again from a cost standpoint both companies would attempt to justify the increased cost of thier models by comparing performance numbers against the mustang.

From a sales standpoint I think that this approach would benefit the mustang due to the price difference but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Take it easy
Brewski

Dan

iTrader: (1)

I thought I was thinking about it before I typed ..You're right, sales are going to suck if they price the cars Like I think..Don't you agree the V8 is going to be marked up by the dealers? It's not going to be pretty. Here is where I am coming from, In another thread it shows the Turbo Cobalt selling for $23,000 for probably a base car..Can you see the V6 or Turbo 4 in the Camaro selling for less? I just don't see it. From what Lutz has been saying, it doesn't look promising. I just hope they pull the rabbit out of the hat for all our sakes.

Hydramatic

Actually, you once again are not thinking....

The Cobalt SS is the top dog compact. It has a leather interior with heated seats, high-powered audio system, suspension, body kit, possibly Recaros again, and a much higher power-weight ratio than a Camaro would have.

In short, the Cobalt SS would be "better" than a cloth-seat, basic sound system, A/C and ABS, steel-wheel having base model Camaro...And therefore is justified in costing more...

And as far as people saying that a turbo four would be terrible for fuel economy....

When's the last time a turbo four got worse economy in real life? They only get shitty gas mileage if you flog em. Every DI t'four I've ever driven has gotten fantastic gas mileage, especially when paired with a six-speed manual with a super-overdrive gear. The ONLY way I could see a 3.6L getting better mpg is if it somehow got DoD, which I don't see happening with it's DOHC....

Under 3000lbs? Are you idiots? That's less than a Z06! NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. If a ~3500lb 4th gen with an LS1 can do 28mpg on the highway, a 3600lb ecotec turbo with less horsepower can do it no problem, and then some!

I swear sometimes it's like you guys just don't take more than half a second to think about what ya'll are even saying before it comes out...


Sometimes, the prejudice against new motors is just baffling.

What do you guys even care, you're getting the eight anyway? Or are you just talking tough online and are really going for the base model when it debuts? That's called hypocrisy.

1BadAction

iTrader: (10)

What the hell!? anyone that argues muscle vs pony car needs to get laid. nobody gives a ****!

Dan

iTrader: (1)

I guess when we finally get some pricing on the Camaro at the dealerships I will look you up Hydra..One of us will be eating crow, I don't think it will be me..And I will admit if I am wrong. I am to lazy to look, anyone have info on how much the 6 cyl LT1 & LS1 Cars cost? I am a little curious...Say 97 & 02 V6 Camaro? A Little quote below. I am sure you have seen this..Not sure how much is truth or BS.

Source: Email Alert From Automotive News

NEW YORK -- General Motors is considering a four-cylinder engine for the new Chevrolet Camaro as a response to rising fuel prices.

Speaking on the sidelines of the New York auto show, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the drivetrain under consideration for the Camaro is the same high-performance one used in the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters. It's a 2.0-liter turbocharged, direct-injected four-cylinder rated at 260 hp. Lutz said that if fuel prices continue to climb, the four-cylinder Camaro could see production.

GM has said it plans V-8 and V-6 versions of the Camaro but otherwise has been secretive. Lutz confirmed to Automotive News that the V-6 version of the Camaro will be powered by the same high-tech V-6 used in the Cadillac CTS. It's a direct-injected, 3.6-liter four-cam V-6. In the CTS, the engine is rated at 304 hp.

Lutz said GM has dropped plans to offer a low-priced, entry-level Camaro with one of GM's low-tech V-6s. GM will position both the V-6 and V-8 versions of the Camaro as premium cars compared to the Camaro's chief rival, the Ford Mustang.
Lutz would not talk specifically about the Camaro's pricing. The car is scheduled to go on sale next February as a 2009 model, but Lutz did say GM views the Camaro as better equipped than the Mustang, and the price will be higher.

The Mustang V-6 coupe has a base price of $20,235. The V-8 GT coupe begins at $26,825. Both prices include shipping.

" We are going to be above Mustang," Lutz said. " We have a very sophisticated suspension system and, frankly, a much nicer interior. We are not going to try and match the Mustang on price. We are going to be premium-priced compared to the Mustang."