JDEP162

Id give him 10k for it, maybe 11. If the milage represents condition.

stubbs4

I don't care if the car had 100 miles the ls1 car shouldn't be any where near a 10 Ss(which is a much better car imo) the best 02 Camaro should not be more than 11k...

It'llrun

This is pretty much how I see it. The 5th gen is the picture of advancement when compared to the 4th or any before it. 4th gen pricing is up because there are those diehards who will pay more and that is partially because they like the straight line performance that much more and they think the 5th is just way too heavy, which is reasonable to a point, but not so much that you should pay as much for a 4th gen as a 5th, which is many times over, more refined.

I'd take a 98-02 WS6 over the current, but I wouldn't pay as much for it. The reasons are many, but none has to do with how great the car is compared to the 5th gen.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Top tier/premium examples of the 4th gen are not common at this point, and have fallen into the "special interest" category, separate from the average mileage/average condition examples. As such, someone looking for a top level example is probably not equally interested in a 5th gen, otherwise they would be using that money to shop for one instead.

The 5th gen offers drastically different styling and some disadvantages for specific purposes (such as IRS and weight, in terms of drag racing; and lack of T-tops - something many 4th gen owners desire). Some people with a 5th gen friendly budget don't necessarily prefer one, for a variety of personal reasons. Hence you have a small group willing to pay high prices for the nicest possible 4th gens. If you are not in this group, then there is no reason to worry about the prices since you wouldn't be a potential buyer anyway.

Understand that this is not a new scenario. Most people feel that the 4th gen is far superior to the 3rd gen, and yet there are still a few people who will pay more for a top condition 3rd gen over an average condition 4th gen.

2000RATA

Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean it isn't worth it. You ever had $300 dollar a bottle whiskey? It's worth it. But you stick to your MadDog 20/20 since that's in you budget. Oh and if you ever did or might need to shop for a wedding ring go to Walmart or a pawn shop. Tiffany's will be out of your price range even though YOU won't think its worth it.

hardbones

But there are perfect low mile examples of 2002 Camaro's and Trans Am's selling all day long for $15-20K+.
If somebody wants one, they are gonna buy it.

It'llrun

Not necessarily... If someone wants one and happens to have twice what it's really worth, they have that option. The majority of people who want one cannot afford it because they don't have 11-25k lying around and most often, you'll not be able to get a bank loan for this model. The reason is, they don't believe it's worth the money and that does actually matter insofar as the real value of the car. Also, the fact that many in good condition are also selling for under 10k plays a role in value.

Ultimately, any vehicle is worth what someone will pay for it, but that alone doesn't truly show the real value of the vehicle. The amount a bank is willing to loan for said vehicle says more about real worth. Of course, if you have a perfect credit score and the cash to buy one, but ask your bank for a loan, there is a chance they'll do it, based on your relationship and background with them.

hardbones

I dont think the majority of the people that are buying the low mile cars are going through a bank for a loan though. These are people who have the disposable income to buy something they couldnt afford to buy new 12+ years ago. No bank is gonna loan you $20K+ on a 12+ year old F-Body no matter how low the mileage but that should have no affect on the true value of the car in my opinion. What people actually pay for them shows what the cars are worth.

It'llrun

Okay, even if what people are paying is the only determining factor, 9 of 10 sell for under 11k...

hardbones

I agree with that but probably less than 3% are low mile original cars and by low mile I mean less than 5,000 original miles.
You can not compare those cars to ones with 75,000 miles and modded selling for $10K

It'llrun

My thought there is, do we really think a 5k example, of which only a handful exist, is worth double or more than double the rest? I don't, particularly when considering you can get a fairly low mileage 2010 SS for that higher price and it truly is much more car. Granted, people like me still don't like the current SS, but regardless, it's worth more because of what it is in comparison.

hardbones

So low mile 5th gen V-8's are selling for $15-20K?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Not when it comes to special interest cars and typical banks. Extremely low mileage, collector quality 4th gens would qualify as "special interest", since the people shopping for these are not looking for an average daily driver.

The 5th gen is worth a certain amount more TO YOU because of what it is in comparasion; not necessarily everyone agrees with this though. Think of the value of a #1 or #2 condition original LS6 Chevelle SS; this is far more than a low mileage used 5th gen SS is worth, yet all the areas that people find the 5th gen to be superior to a 4th gen apply in this comparsion as well. But good luck finding that mint or excellent condition Chevelle SS for $10k or less in today's market. Superority is often subjective, especially when it comes to special interest cars. Granted, the 4th gen is not an LS6 Chevelle, but it IS much harder to find a #1 or #2 condition 4th gen than a comparably nice 5th gen, therefore those limited examples that do exist will bring a premium so long as there is a group willing to pay it. This particular group doesn't really care that they can get an average 5th gen for a bit more money, otherwise they would have already bought one instead.

It'llrun

I don't know, but we're talking about some 4th gens listed closer to 30k and some actually at 30k, so yes, that's 5th gen territory.

Still, the banks don't offer much, if anything to most people in this regard. However, now we're talking about a low mileage fully optioned 35th SS or the like. Not a ZL1, but something exceptionally rare, not like any typical 4th gen and that leaves out all but about 1000 cars. Maybe more, but you get the point.

The BANK finds it worth more. I'm not part of the equation here. That rare LS6 Chevelle is exactly that, RARE. More rare than essentially any production Camaro. They made plenty of them, but nowhere near as many as the 4th gen and it's proven valuable also simply for having lasted more than 40yrs already, more than double any 4th gen, of course(though that faactor will change soon).

For me, it comes down to the overall picture. As the title suggests, why do some think theirs is a goldmine? The majority of people who have a 4th gen as valuable as these high dollar asking prices... aren't selling their 4th gen. Too many, it seems, think they have one of those super special, rare 4th gens when in reality, they don't.

Doesn't bother me what someone pays for any vehicle, as long as they're happy about it. Even so, just because Billy Joe paid 25k for a 15yr old 4th gen doesn't mean the 4th gen is worth 25k in general.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

The problem with something like a 35th LE SS is that what makes it rare is simple cosmetics. It's not a faster, more powerful nor better performing car than a regular SS, and is still very comparable to a base Z28 in most performance aspects (other than perhaps handling, due to the 275/40/17 tires). For this reason, to a special interest collector, the valve spread between a base SS and an LE 35th SS isn't going to be as huge as what we'll see in the future between a 5th gen SS and a 5th gen ZL1, for example.

Not sure this matters as much as you seem to think. Not everyone (especially many collectors) needs a loan from a normal bank. There are institutions that lend greater amounts for appraised special interest cars, as well as many collectors and enthusiasts that are able to pay cash.

You're right, you personally are not part of the equation because you are not in the market for such a car; you would rather have a 5th gen for the money, so you are in a different market. However, interested individuals ARE the market, not the banks, so as long as interested individuals have the means and desire to buy certain cars at certain prices, then that will be their market value.

Actually there were about ~4500 LS6 Chevelles built for 1970, which makes them originally more common than the ~3400 LE SSs built for 2002, and FAR more common than the ~100 LT4 SSs built for 1997. But at this point it's more about how many are left, rather than how many were built originally.

In any event, even a really nice LS6 Chevelle clone is worth as much or more than most used 5th gen SSs, so original rarity alone is not always necessary for higher-than-average value compared to similarly aged cars.

They weren't always worth this kind of money. There was a time when you couldn't give away a BBC Chevelle, and a time when they weren't worth much more than any other used car of similar age. But their value today is driven by individuals in the market. There are other cars of similar age that are even more rare, but not worth as much simply because the market doesn't support it.

"Goldmine" seems to be another subjective term. Some people here seem to think that no 4th gen is worth more than ~$10-11k. Their opinion is not realistic as there are several people that have and do pay more (sometimes considerably more) for the top tier cars. On the other hand, I do agree that at a certain point some people are just dreamers (such as that 2002 SS that was listed for over $70k), and they will discover this for themselves when their car never sells.

I agree. One exmaple, by itself, isn't proof of a trend (unless it's the only example to be had). But several examples within a market group would in fact be a trend.

CarolinaTA

iTrader: (6)

Honestly i think some of the cars, birds mainly, are being priced fairly correctly. However a 4th gen camaro shouldnt be worth as much regardless of it they are "The same car". They wont ever make another firebird. Do i think people should be asking over 10k for a 100k mile car? **** no..... I could see paying that if it was perfect and the engine, trans and rear end had been rebuilt or replaced.

It'llrun

You could've gotten a 35th LE SS with special suspension as well as a tad more power, no? Of course it will never compare like a 5th gen ZL1 to an SS, but those don't have the same... much of anything aside from the tub. Different engine, rear end, interior bits, and sticker price, to the tune of over $20,000.00 and that's all the difference they'll ever need to remain far apart in later value.

No, I pointed out that we're looking for people in no way needing a loan to pay the big dollars for one, but that the banks are still a large part of setting the value, certainly more a part than what, perhaps a few hundred buyers would be willing to pay amounts to in comparison.

Therein lies the reality. More people who want one cannot afford and/or are not willing to pay these high dollar amounts, than people who are willing and able. Thousands more. This is precisely what brings the question about. More people think they're NOT worth that much than think they are.

Most of the high dollar purchases I read about here seem to be from those whose cars were totaled and they got some great amount of insurance money and then, coupled with money they already had, bought a high dollar example. There's NOTHING wrong with it, but the fact is, most people simply will not pay the excessive asking prices these days.

How many years though, did GM offer the LS6 Chevelle? Plus, as we've both eluded, the number left really matters. There are far fewer 1970 LS6's than 4th gens which most find ultra-desirable. They are easier to replicate, however.

Yep.

I think we see this differently. Sure, there was the gas crunch and that put the value of all gas guzzling big blocks on the short list of what not to buy. Then came unleaded fuel and with it, more work keeping the older cars running properly and it wasn't until the LATE 1990's that we saw any notable resurgence for those and today, they're basically at historic pricing levels. Let's hope the same cannot be said for the 4th gen.

Not realistic? Maybe you should do a poll and simply ask how many people are openly willing to pay over 20k for a 4th gen, or maybe just ask what people think they're worth and give a set of choices. Idonno, but I do think I'd be shocked if most were willing to pay so much, even if they have it. For me, there just comes a time when I have to wonder where the value is in correlation with the actual vehicle. It would have to be SERIOUSLY special for me to spend more than average.

There aren't that many examples at high dollar... Well, maybe their are and that's part of why they're not selling quickly.

Btw, thanks for the civil discussion.

hardbones

I have seen 4th Gens listed for $30K but have not seen them selling for that price. I have seen pristine low mile, less than 1500 miles, Trans Am WS6 cars selling for $20-22K and it seems more of them are coming out of their hiding places every month and landing in the market.
Plus like I said, just because a bunch of low mile cars sell for $20K it doesn't mean they are all worth that.
I still laugh at the people that list low mile cars for $30-45K, these cars have not started to appreciate in value just yet but surely will over time.

It'llrun

Hence, "goldmine" and that's what the OP was getting at right off.

I think those folks are generally 1 of 2 types. Either scammers or real idiots. I don't see a time in the near future when any 4th gen will truly hold a value of 30k or more, unless it's some sort of known race winner driven by some high-filutin' history making driver or something like the actual 1st one. Perhaps one owned, driven and signed by Dale Earnhardt(Sr.) and documented as such by sources such as Dale Jr, who we know would be sure. Merely having the only purple 1LE which happens to have under 2,000 miles isn't gonna do it for most.

Z28 6spd

iTrader: (3)

^This. Plenty of people out there that couldn't afford them new, but now have a second chance to get a low mileage, almost new car. Myself, I'd rather pay a little more for an unmolested car and make it the way I want.