RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Same could be said for any 2002 SS, as the 345hp package and optional suspension/tire upgrades were not limited to the 35th LE cars.

I disagree. When we're speaking of the limited amount of actual top tier collector cars, they are a very small amount of the whole. These cars are in fact rare, regardless of their original options, simply due to the fact that they have been spared the abuse of usage. "Normal" banks have little to do with the value of those examples at this point, since the average buyer for such a car would be someone with the means to pay (either via cash or a loan from institutions that specialize in such) the premium necessary to get what they want. At that point, value is a product of desire and availablity/supply vs. the lowest price for which someone is willing to sell such an example.

Except that it doesn't matter what people who can't afford/aren't willing to pay feel they are worth, so long as there's a group that IS still willing to pay. If/when nobody is willing to pay, then prices will decline. Value for special interest cars is often a moving target.

There were several hundred thousand '70 Chevelles built, and any one that's been fully & properly restored and cloned into an BB SS car will be worth as much or more than your average 5th gen SS....even with all of the modern advancements that the 5th gen offers. Point being, even original rarity (or lack thereof) isn't always necessary for higher-than-average value as compared to similarly aged cars, and just because something is newer and more advanced/refined/etc. doesn't necessarily mean that all segments of buyers will value it higher.

I agree. I'm looking at this from the perspetive of a person that is often willing to pay a premium for high-level condition examples of cars that I wish to own, and whether or not the "average" buyer is more interested in something newer/more advanced/more refined/etc. is of no concern to me. Like anyone, I will look for the best price possible for a given car at a given condition, but just because that same money might get me something else that "average" buyers would prefer, doesn't mean that *I* have the same preference.

What would be more useful would be to take a poll of people who have recently bought or sold a #1 or #2 condition 4th gen; cars with 3, 4 or extremely low 5-digit mileage, that are in 95+ point condition (true mint/near mint cars, not what the average person considers "mint/near mint"). These are the people actually in this market, not the folks who buy and sell the average condition examples and feel than none of them are worth more than $10-11k.

I would be too, since I don't think that "most" people are in the market for such a car in the first place. The average 4th gen buyer is looking for a weekend project/toy, race car or fun daily driver. But "average" doesn't equal "all", and therefore the target market for such cars is smaller but not dictated by what people shopping for the 100k+ mile, average condition examples are willing to pay.

I agree. I'm definitely not suggesting that there is no ceiling for these cars, for example I wouldn't pay $70k for the SS mentioned earlier in this thread because similar examples can easily be had for much less. However, it's unrealistic to state that top tier examples "shouldn't" be priced at a point that some people are still willing to pay. If it's not worth it to YOU, then you are simply not in that market, and if it's not worth it to ANYONE, then prices will in fact decline.

Agreed.

This is a more rare thing to find around here than even an LT4 SS.

It'llrun

I'd just see a tad more real world value in that extra something. Mind you, I like the WS6 and have positively no interest in any other 4th gen because for me, these would only be about the best looking version, after having strongly considered another F-body in my life before my most recent purchase.

Here's where we begin to separate in view. I have no mental attachment to any car which makes me think I'd pay more than normal cost for it "just because." On top of that, I really don't visualize too many 4th gens as rare while being admirable. I liked the 93-97 well enough, but it didn't really impress me. The 98-02 made a real impression. Not only did it lose those tiny headlights, it gained headlamps... Still, the WS6 was the only one I truly found "special" in any way. It just made the others look like the little brothers to me. Even so, when my uncle, who ran a Pontiac dealership, offered me an EXCELLENT deal on an 02 I'd been wanting, I had to pass. That was because it was only excellent as compared to what people were offering. He sold that car himself, for nearly 40k... Idonno who got it, but it was worth it to them and not me for 8k less. So... maybe I'm just a bit harder to deal with in these. Soon thereafter, he retired as GM and I moved along myself. I do sometimes wonder if I'd still have it, had I bought it.

I feel the group is smaller than I suspect you do and that's part of why these 25-30k versions aren't selling worth a darn.

I don't think I'd spend that much for just any old Chevelle simply because it looks like an original 454 SS. I used to be really into those, but at the time, I didn't know anyone who paid more than a few grand for one, so I'm probably just out there on it. Of course, I'm still not too fun to sell a car to, for sure.

Yes... we've definitely found our different approach here. I am fairly strict in that I value a vehicle based on the sum of its parts rather than any other aspect, even if I feel like I'll be pissed off at myself for going home without it. I will indeed walk away. So far, I think it's saved me from being fairly unhappy with the purchase of any vehicle I might've been unhappy with later.

I might agree, but as we've both noted, too many people think they just purchased or sold the best example ever. With that, I don't think we'd get any unexpected result, up to and including pics from 30 feet away, showing "what a beauty she is."

YES! This is why the group of real "I want that perfect car" people are so hard to find... just like finding "that car" usually is.

I agree with you here for sure. The very few... are worth more than most. That said, it remains that the number is lower than most "sellers" are aware. Too often, I find "This CHERRY" to have been long since popped...

I haven't seen any lately, not that I've truly been looking(although I did till August last year for almost a yr) that I saw as really worth their price when called... called, top level. I'd read something like, "only problem is a couple paint chips on the front clip" and I'd look closer and see flat out bad paint in many cases. "Runs like a top" has turned into, "Well, she may need a tune up." Idonno... I guess I was a bit tarnished because I either found "nasty" at a reasonable price or "extremely expensive" for a version I'd want. There were some tweeners, but I always passed.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I liked the WS6 cars enough to purchase one brand new back in July of 2000. At the time, this package only increased the value (MSRP) of the car by roughly 10%. The WS6 cars have in fact held their value a bit better than base model Formulas and Trans Ams.

As the years passed, my tastes changed a bit and the WS6 T/A was no longer my preferred styling. I would much rather have a Camaro at this point; SS or Z28 makes no difference to me, so I have ended up with Z28s simply because I'm just as happy to own one and can do so for less money than a comparable SS. I would not pay more for a WS6 or Firebird in general because, to me, they are not worth more and I actually don't prefer them (but I realize this is only my opinion, and only matters when I'm the one shopping). Point being, even though we are of different mindsets, I do still look for the most affordable ways to accomplish my personal goals; it's not like I'm willing to spend money on a given car just for the sake of spending money. If I needed/wanted another "show quality" 4th gen at this point, I would probably have to pay the additional premium for an SS since there are likely no more than a handful of LS1 Z28s left in the country that would be true #1/#2 cars without a restoration. I'm not currently interested in owning a 5th gen as a "show car" (though I might not mind one as a regular driver), so their average value/price is not a consideration to me for this purpose.

I definitely have a certain mental attachment to the cars I purchase as toys. I do in fact like them more than the money used to purchase them, otherwise I wouldn't have bought them (seeing as they are certainly not necessities) in the first place. To me, such things as condition and options that I personally desire are more important than rarity or specific original trim levels. I'm very picky and have some very specific preferences, and when the "right" example presents itself, I'm willing to pay a certain premium so long as it falls within my budget at the time.

I don't see this as a big group at all, especially not when you get into the $25k+ range. But the group willing to pay in excess of the $10-11k maximum mentioned earlier in this thread is more than just a handful IMO.

Sounds like we both have a system that works for us as individuals.

I massively agree with this. Far too many people that are either unaware or just unrealistic about the true meaning of mint or near mint/excellent. I can't tell you how many cars I've been disappointed by over the years. In general, if a car is listed as "mint/near mint", it's probably nice or fair at best. And cars listed as nice or fair are usually junk.

I agree that there are many people who think they have top level show cars and price them as such, but in reality those examples are often not of the caliber listed in their ads. Probably 10% or less of the cars listed as "perfect" are anything close to perfect.

It'llrun

I guess that since my uncle was the GM of a Pontiac dealership, I grew more to like the WS6 because I was able to see them compared to the other birds and I didn't like the Camaro as much because even though the lights were far nicer in 98+, to me the Pontiac was still nicer. Besides, I knew those lights would tarnish over time and that alone turned me off to Camaro. It looked to plain to me and while I like a great example today, generally that's as far as I've changed on the matter. This is about the same as our tastes being different in these cars at this point and our different way of determining what we're willing to pay based on our own criteria.

Also, I agree there ARE some between the 11k and 20k range, but those are even rare in my view and that's where I see the start of a detachment for some sellers. Dealerships are famous for massive markup pricing and some private sellers seem to think those prices are legit and an overpricing problem ensues. Of course, I have no consideration for any over 20k anyway, but that's where we see this come full circle...

Too many people think there typical car is special in a concourse kinda way...

Way more fun than any debate is supposed to be! Of course, we don't disagree too much really. We just see it from a bit different angles. In the end the only real difference here is, I still can't see 21k+ for any example that doesn't have bona fide history whereas you may find a few you think really stand out that well.

Almonz T/A

I'm going to chime in and interrupt this great debate between you two gentlemen I have to say I completely agree with both of you on this subject. I have bought and went to see enough cars to say that MANY owners have no idea what MINT condition is. For instance, I have went to view cars that owners proclaimed were in mint condition, yet they had scratches, paint chips, even sunfade.

Whenever I think of perfect condition I commonly refer to a '70 Camaro Z28 that is in my area. The owner has restored it top to bottom, rotisserie restoration, put in a supercharged 454 and then NEVER drove it. The only miles it has seen is when he loads and unloads it on his trailer to take it to shows. That car is PERFECT. I have seen it at a couple shows here and have talked to the owner. He dares people to try to find an imperfection on the car, and I have to say I have thoroughly gone over it and I couldn't. So when I see a craigslist ad with an owner who claims their car is in perfect condition I am enormously skeptical. Not to say that their vehicle isn't in very very good condition, but I haven't seen a perfect car besides that '70 Camaro.

I apologize for the long story, but it proves my point that many owners have no idea what an actual #1 top condition vehicle actually looks like.

It'llrun

Long story? Sure...

We definitely agree here though, exactly. Too many people, even when explained what "perfect" means, think theirs is... Perfect condition, for me anyway, doesn't have to mean unblemished. It does, however, mean "factory condition" and that's ultra rare at best. As we all know, once it's driven, little changes are simply bound to happen. With that, we can only hope those changes are so minute that we don't notice them. Those cars typically will have been climate controlled all their life, or at least garage kept and generally covered too, along with very low mileage.

Almonz T/A

Perfect is a subjective term that differs from person to person. In my mind when someone tells me their car is perfect I expect well...perfection. Like you said perfection (AKA factory condition) is ultra rare. Hell, ultra rare is an understatement. Peoples' ideas of 'perfect cars' are very skewed these days which is why I always make sure to see a car before making any conclusions about it and also I tell people when purchasing cars to take an owner's opinion with a grain of salt. Too many times I have gone by myself or with a friend to look at a car with them that they discovered on Craigs and have found the owner's claims were far from it.

I once drove 3 hours to view an IROC Camaro that the owner talked up so well on Craigs by saying it's in 'mint condition, no rust, runs strong. I called them up and asked if there was anything wrong with it that I should know of because if I go down with cash I expected to actually buy it. Long story short I got there and it was a mess...The interior was stripped down and not for racing, there was a trailer hitch on it, a taillight was cracked, the clear coat was non existent. I tried telling the owner that this vehicle was garbage and he misrepresented it online. He wouldn't budge on his price and declared the vehicle was 'one of the better ones he's seen'. It's mentality like this that makes buying cars such a headache - owners who think they have something that is great but in reality is far from it. This is why when I sell cars I tend to undersell it on Craigs so when someone does look at it they are actually somewhat surprised to see it's in a better condition than they expected.

"MAC"

iTrader: (1)

Its very hard and costly to get perfect condition. That said to me perfect condition only existed when it rolled out of the factory anything else is a #2 car that some one paid a great amount of detail, time, and money to get it done. Even if its a #2car i wouldnt pay more than 15k for it and thats still 5k to much. I would only pay the extra 5k bc after all the person kinda deserves it for the amount of work that they did to the car to keep it looking good and working right. No matter the miles at the end of the day its a 12 to 16 year old car and that i can not get over.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

The hazing headlights are only a problem for the examples that are regulary exposed to UV light (parked out in the sun, driven daily, etc.) This is a non-issue for garage queens, as my '98 has absolutely zero haze/yellowing/tarnish after 16 years of mostly sitting in the garage.

Firebirds have their own "headlight issues", thanks to the junk gears supplied by the factory. Sure, this can be upgraded with brass, but Camaro headlights can also be restored with wet sanding and protected with 2-stage automotive clear coat or regular waxing. Either way, you're going to have some headlight hassles.

While I still like the Pontiac F-bodies (and would likely own another if the right one came along, preferrably a Formula though), I find their styling to be less clean than Camaro, and so my personal nod goes to the Chevrolet side. But I can certainly appreciate a super clean example of either.

Agreed.

Also agreed.



I agree. A true #1 car is not driven, other than perhaps on and off a trailer. "Mint" actually means mint - flawless, 100 point, etc.

What I bolded above is a good example of what often seems to go wrong with a person's definition of "mint/perfect/etc." What they are really trying to say is that "it's better than some of the junk I've seen", BUT, that doesn't make it perfect or mint.

The term "perfect" should not be subjective, but unfortunately it is. The definition will vary based on one's experience and eye for detail. My '98 car has been judged at 97 points consistantly by different judges at local events. Most "normal" people, or even average car enthusiasts, would call the car "perfect" if they saw it, but I would not, as it's not a true 100 point car. It does have some minor flaws based on the fact that it's street driven, and therefore a #2 car. It's "excellent", or "near mint", but it's not perfect and not mint. It's very hard for people to be realistic about these things because they want to believe that what they own is something special, but you'll never be able to fool someone with a sharp eye for detail.

slt200mph

iTrader: (42)

You folks have beat this topic to death. It is real simple a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. On the other related subject unrealistic sellers are every where selling everything. There is no shortage of those kind of people. Mine was 3 years old with less than 10k miles on it and was in great condition when I bought it. I bought it for less than loan value. After 270,000 + miles it still turns heads and brings compliments. I probably will never sell it. Its a fun car that I know like the back of my hand. It is the last of the simple hot rods that you can work on and modify that GM produced.

hardbones

To each his own but there are plenty of people out there willing to pay top dollar for the "right car"
Here is a hard to find set of NOS floormats for an 2002 CETA on Ebay, they are at $775 and there is 2 hours left!
To some people thats crazy but to others its what they are worth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281259431379...9#ht_35wt_1166

It'llrun

Since you're watchin'... tell us for how much they sell. I'm curious, but haven't logged in for ages and even if I could remember my password, ain't..

slikrider20

iTrader: (9)

People list cars high all the time. Doesn't mean it'll sell for that or even that they think it's worth that. A new sucker is born every day. Might as well give it a shot.

^That's their mindset. I don't mess around too much and price to sell, dealing with tire kickers, especially off of craigslist, is a headache.

hardbones

Sold for $775...

It'llrun

Was it bid to that $$ or a buy it now? Again, just curious. That's a whole lottamoney fo flo mats...

stubbs4

I have a near stock 00 SS with 119k so I don't need another one but what makes a 4th Gen not worth 20 k is its age its a common mass produced car. And the 4th Gen will require a lot of mods (shocks seats rear ends etc) where as a 5gen gets it right while maintaining similar performance. I love my car and I thank God it doesn't give me problems but 15-20k for a mint 4th is just silly..

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

As long as there are others willing to pay, your opinion will have zero impact on the price of these examples.

As it sits, I wouldn't trade my '98 even for two 5th gens. They are OK cars, but their styling and extra gadgetry are steps away from my personal preferences. The only advantage that a 5th gen has in my eyes is the fact it's easy to find a really nice low mileage one that will serve well as a reliable daily driver for many years to come. I would consider one for a driver, but would not be interested in "collecting" one as a show car or garage queen toy. Most 4th gens need some work at this point, simply because they are older - and one day the 5th gens will be in that same boat.

hardbones

It was bid up to that price starting at $150

hardbones

Exactly!!

It'llrun

While surprising, I thought about it a bit and wonder if those didn't go so high just because they were wanted strictly for a show car which wasn't missing anything else. It seems unreasonable to pay so much for any other type of car and apparently there are a couple people who were in need. Again, surprising to see.