Coil swap yields 9.25 HP and 18.6 TQ
02-09-2010, 09:17 PM
#361
Hell, how much are stock ls1 coils? I have 177,000 on mine. I might do the test myself lol. 
02-09-2010, 09:49 PM
#362
It’s been discussed earlier in this thread and it’s generally agreed that these ignition coils do not "wear out" or have diminishing spark as they get older. If a coil develops a problem, it’ll either fail outright or cause a miss triggering the SES light. These coils have no moving parts in them to wear out, everything’s potted in place so vibrations have no affect on them.
This discussion arose after others suggested the truck coils showed an improvement because the test was done with "old" LS1 coils.
Of course, there’s a small percentage of people who say with confidence that these coils do in fact wear out. I’m not in that group. Judge for yourself.
Also discussed is the fact that some people have shown on a dyno or feel that their cars have more power from the truck coil upgrade. Some folks show no improvement. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why it works well on some cars and not on other. It's been proven that the truck coils have bigger, more powerful spark energy. You all looked at the Megasquirt video, right?
Is it a costly upgrade for "only" nine HP? You’ll gain less HP by upgrading to a Meziere EWP at over $600.00 yet some guys do it for the little improvement they do produce.
This discussion arose after others suggested the truck coils showed an improvement because the test was done with "old" LS1 coils.
Of course, there’s a small percentage of people who say with confidence that these coils do in fact wear out. I’m not in that group. Judge for yourself.
Also discussed is the fact that some people have shown on a dyno or feel that their cars have more power from the truck coil upgrade. Some folks show no improvement. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why it works well on some cars and not on other. It's been proven that the truck coils have bigger, more powerful spark energy. You all looked at the Megasquirt video, right?
Is it a costly upgrade for "only" nine HP? You’ll gain less HP by upgrading to a Meziere EWP at over $600.00 yet some guys do it for the little improvement they do produce.
Last edited by Paul Bell; 02-09-2010 at 10:01 PM.
02-09-2010, 10:17 PM
#363
Its the same old STORY with spark energy. How much does an engine NEED. It needs enough to fire the mixture. Is more better probably not. We did back to back dyno runs on chevys fords and chryslers. NO change from a properly working ignition system. How in the world can an ignition gain all the wheel HP that is posted with a coil change. In the 47 years in the business and countless DYNO hours i could not make any HP gains from a working system and an aftermarket setup. I have found that coils do loose spark energy in some cases. Chevy coils or closed core coils are very Efficient. But they do get week. We found a week coil last month on a ford and one on a dodge. The cylinder scope does not LIE. Hope this is helpful.
02-09-2010, 10:49 PM
#364
There's some of that small percentage chiming in.
Regardless, THIS coil swap has shown improvement in MOST cars that it's been tried on. The truck coil has more jules output and more dwell. It must be doing something because it's shown improvement in MOST cars that it's tried on.
The FI guys have been upgrading to this coil for years.
Tom, I'm not trying to be a wise *** but in many of your posts, you mention your 47 years in the business. Shouldn't you be retired by now?
Regardless, THIS coil swap has shown improvement in MOST cars that it's been tried on. The truck coil has more jules output and more dwell. It must be doing something because it's shown improvement in MOST cars that it's tried on.
The FI guys have been upgrading to this coil for years.
Tom, I'm not trying to be a wise *** but in many of your posts, you mention your 47 years in the business. Shouldn't you be retired by now?
02-10-2010, 05:38 AM
#365
Maybe the Jules are higher and the dwell time is greatly improved but how much ignition is NEEDED. The engines in QUESTION are coil on plug and have much more saturation time than waste spark or standard single coil. I am semi retired and my son posts on this site all the TIME. Care to know who builds his DRIVETRAIN. ME Think real hard and do some WONDERING who he is????. With all due respect bill Jenkins is retired and he still builds some NASTY CARS. You Sir were not taught GOOD MANNERS. Thanks for your CONCERN about my retirement. I know US old guys dont know Sh$$. Thanks for the compliment.
Last edited by tom falco; 02-10-2010 at 05:53 AM.
02-10-2010, 07:27 AM
#366
Hey Tom, I mentioned that you mention your years in business because when you mention it, it gives others the impression that because of your tenure, you must be right all the time. Most take this as you being somewhat arrogant. You very well may be the nicest guy in person but it’s how you come off here. You’ll also notice that the older folks here have actual names not some street rod moniker as their name. This is a sign of maturity. I for one do respect your obvious years as I’m a little younger at "only" 48. However, despite all my years, I feel I can learn something every day and accept my humanity and the fact that I do not know everything. Don’t get the wrong impression. I and certainly others here appreciate and respect your advice and experience.
I’ve kept myself open to the fact that some guys have done this coil swap with no improvements. Most guys have had improvements. In my previous ride, a LT1 F-body, I had the LTCC kit. I upgraded from a set of new LS1 coils to a set of these LS2 truck coils. The engine was totally different and had markedly more high RPM power. New coils vs. new coils. This is what pushed me to do the swap when I became a LS1 car owner. However, they were unuseable with the LTCC system as they created pre-detonation at lower RPM. I discussed this with Bob Baily.
If all these different coils do the exact same thing, why would GM use the bigger coils on their heavy duty applications? By your description that spark has no effect on power other than lighting the fire and upgrading to a better coil will not produce more power, all of these coils will perform equally:
I’ve kept myself open to the fact that some guys have done this coil swap with no improvements. Most guys have had improvements. In my previous ride, a LT1 F-body, I had the LTCC kit. I upgraded from a set of new LS1 coils to a set of these LS2 truck coils. The engine was totally different and had markedly more high RPM power. New coils vs. new coils. This is what pushed me to do the swap when I became a LS1 car owner. However, they were unuseable with the LTCC system as they created pre-detonation at lower RPM. I discussed this with Bob Baily.
If all these different coils do the exact same thing, why would GM use the bigger coils on their heavy duty applications? By your description that spark has no effect on power other than lighting the fire and upgrading to a better coil will not produce more power, all of these coils will perform equally:
02-10-2010, 03:31 PM
#368
Ok Paul I always like a guy that calls it like it is. Just for the record Tom Falco Is my real Name. Ok i understand where you are comming from now and i did not want to come off as a P$$$$. So i stand by your statement and i am sorry. With that said here is something i would like to share with you. In the old days when i would go to the track faithfully i had the priviledge to talk to Bill Jenkins from time to time. I once had a discussion with him about spark energy and output. He asked me a question. At what RPM do you hit at the end of a run. I told him 9500 RPM'S. He replied do you experiance any miss firing. I told him NO. Then he replied. ( Then You Have Enough Spark ). Bill was a very direct guy. With short to the point answers. Now i know where you are comming from with High output coils. But here is something to think about. Coil on plug or individual coils per cylinder have all the time in the world to saturate. Its not like in the old days when a coil had to service 8 plugs and fire 8 times in 2 revolutions. The coils on modern engines have it easy and fire much less in ther life span. So saturation time is a piece of cake. Remember to much saturation can cause a drop in energy. The GM guys are real good at what they do and are real sharp. If we ever had the chance to talk in person we would really have a good time because we have the same interests COOL CARS. If that ever happens the beers are on ME. I take what you said sereyously and understand what you meant. I will tone it down and just post what i think works. I am not always right no one is. BUT I have spent a lot of time trying to be. I have done some extensive testing on coil output and performance. We found no difference in HP with ignition UP DATES that amounted to hp gains. I could be wrong about this just what we found. Thanks for the critisim i guess i had it comming. I really did not want to come off like that. Sorry to the other posters also. Tom Falco
02-10-2010, 04:59 PM
#369
It takes about 10-14,000 volts to initiate the spark across the plug gap. After the initial arc the voltage required to sustain the arc is much less and drops off significantly. So while you may have a manufacturer claimed 60,000 volt racing coil you can't actually get that across the plug. Since the advantage of CDI is the higher coil output, how does that get used. Well, normally it doesn't. The extra power possible in the coil is "Reserve Voltage". As the plugs wear, fouling, plug wires and connections get worse then the required firing voltage may go up 1-5,000 volts. So the "hotter" CDI coil output can help overcome these obstacles and the ignition system will last longer. So, its not that its working better.... but rather lasting longer that makes a hot coil good. The ideal coil output needed for normal applications is about 30,000 volts.
Here is an article from a GM engineer that may help understand High performance or output coils. Jim wilson from GM engineering sent this to me Hope this helps TOM
Here is an article from a GM engineer that may help understand High performance or output coils. Jim wilson from GM engineering sent this to me Hope this helps TOM
02-10-2010, 06:47 PM
#370
No apologies needed, I fully appreciate the fact that you stand by your principles, experience and knowledge. I’m buying the second round!
I’ll agree that according to common engineering practices, ignition coils should not increase performance after a certain voltage level. However, sometimes the data does not agree with the results in use and practice. In my case and at least a handful of others here, this coil swap made a difference. Inexplicable? Perhaps.
Good guy that Grumpy. He’s a thinker.
I’ll agree that according to common engineering practices, ignition coils should not increase performance after a certain voltage level. However, sometimes the data does not agree with the results in use and practice. In my case and at least a handful of others here, this coil swap made a difference. Inexplicable? Perhaps.
Good guy that Grumpy. He’s a thinker.
02-10-2010, 08:58 PM
#371
Thanks and i wish i could figure out the HP gaim you got. It has me thinking. One thing i learned years ago is the dyno does not lie. Did you do comparison pulls with corrected DATA Thanks tom
03-02-2010, 11:00 AM
#375
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I've been waiting for this question.
The LS1 coil brackets will not mount the truck coils.
The LS1 coil wiring harnesses will NOT work as the plugs and pin-outs on the coil end is different. The coil harness to engine harness plug is the same and the new harness will plug in directly.
The truck coil brackets are 10457736, 2 needed.
The LS2 wiring harnesses are 12601824, 2 needed.
The coils are 10457730 (AC D585), 8 needed.
GM/Chevy trucks had several different coils and brackets so be careful. These coils are the ones with the heat sink on the backside. Brackets from other coils will not fit.
On the the LS1 F-body cars, the A.I.R. piping will be in the way. On the passenger side, the fuel line and solonoid will be in the way. A little fanageling will be needed to get it in.
I had a set of LS7 spark plug wires laying around and they fit & look nicely.
The LS1 coil brackets will not mount the truck coils.
The LS1 coil wiring harnesses will NOT work as the plugs and pin-outs on the coil end is different. The coil harness to engine harness plug is the same and the new harness will plug in directly.
The truck coil brackets are 10457736, 2 needed.
The LS2 wiring harnesses are 12601824, 2 needed.
The coils are 10457730 (AC D585), 8 needed.
GM/Chevy trucks had several different coils and brackets so be careful. These coils are the ones with the heat sink on the backside. Brackets from other coils will not fit.
On the the LS1 F-body cars, the A.I.R. piping will be in the way. On the passenger side, the fuel line and solonoid will be in the way. A little fanageling will be needed to get it in.
I had a set of LS7 spark plug wires laying around and they fit & look nicely.
What makes the truck coils better? are they thicker than the LS1 coils? How does the truck coils compare to the MSD coils?
03-02-2010, 12:19 PM
#376
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stock ls1 coils better then MSD's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Truck coils are a tad better then LS1 coils! MSD coils are the biggest waste of money for LSX cars/trucks. DO NOT BUY MSD COILS!!! If ya wanna throw money away just throw it my way 
03-02-2010, 12:32 PM
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also, i cant believe this thread is Alive A-g-a-i-n. lol
03-02-2010, 02:02 PM
#379
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So if I'm currently running at 900RWHP what should I expect from these coils? Is it a percentage or is it just a straight forward jump in HP? I've been running the same coils since November of 1998 when I bought my car new off the showroom floor. I was thinking of adding another 100RWHP by increasing boost with bigger injectors. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree? LOL.......
I've tried different coils in the past and they gained me nothing measurable. If my HP level was as low as the OP I'd spend my money on different parts and skip paying for a dyno run. But whatever floats your boat.
I've tried different coils in the past and they gained me nothing measurable. If my HP level was as low as the OP I'd spend my money on different parts and skip paying for a dyno run. But whatever floats your boat.
03-02-2010, 03:01 PM
#380
So if I'm currently running at 900RWHP what should I expect from these coils? Is it a percentage or is it just a straight forward jump in HP? I've been running the same coils since November of 1998 when I bought my car new off the showroom floor. I was thinking of adding another 100RWHP by increasing boost with bigger injectors. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree? LOL.......
I've tried different coils in the past and they gained me nothing measurable. If my HP level was as low as the OP I'd spend my money on different parts and skip paying for a dyno run. But whatever floats your boat.
I've tried different coils in the past and they gained me nothing measurable. If my HP level was as low as the OP I'd spend my money on different parts and skip paying for a dyno run. But whatever floats your boat.
You should expect to gain peace of mind in having a more efficient spark in the chamber (less concern about combustion). Any power gains, if any, are icing.
If you haven't seen it, there is a video in this thread where an LS2 & a truck coil were compared; each had a longer dwell time than the stock LS1. The LS1 wasn't shown tested, but, the auther commented on its' performance. The truck coil had the stronger spark (than the LS2), both were excellent.