wayland1985

You didn't by chance do any before/after dyno runs, did you? I'm curious if there are any performance gains to be had.

Toddoky

The dyno testing is planned to be carried out on another vehicle as the car used for prototyping the system geometry was delivered with a bastardized exhaust system that made the car inappropriate for use as a baseline reference. There is another employee here that has a stock low mileage 2002 B4C that we are going to use for that purpose.

ironmanLS1

iTrader: (9)

When do you expect this to be available for sale?

Toddoky

The headers were welded up this past week and should hit the shelf by the end of the coming week and the exhaust system will follow them in the later half of next month. We have all the parts bent to build the first production run of the exhaust systems and are waiting for the arrival of the various brackets in the kit that we have laser cut and bent for us by a supplier. The welding of the exhaust systems will take place next week and we will box them up as soon as we received the vendor supplied parts.

ironmanLS1

iTrader: (9)

Thanks. I look forward to the dyno and video. I didn't read through all of the posts but I agree, LT's at least from a header back system may be an item of consideration.

Fry_

If you could test the new mid length headers with only the first section of exhaust pipes connected vs a set of 1 7/8's LT's with either nothing connected or only 12-18" collector extensions, it would show the true hp difference between the two without any other variables and could even be done on an engine dyno saving the effort of an in car installation.

wayland1985

Group buy?

Toddoky

We won't have much time with the car when it comes into the shop this week, so my test request instructions are only going to be to take a couple pulls on the chassis dyno this time around. There will be more testing done in the future when I bring the CB4 in to prototype the 50-state cat back. It would be beneficial for users to think of these components in the context of a complete system, which is where the real benefits will be seen.

Toddoky

You can purchase products directly off the Holley website for convenience, but there's never any group buy opportunities offered directly from Holley. There are a few Holley/Hooker resellers who advertise on this site that would be willing to put together something of that nature I'm sure.

wayland1985

It was worth a shot!

So to fit with long tube headers; would material need to be added or taken away? I'm trying to picture how it would mount up to the mid-length headers.

Toddoky

It all depends on the particular set of headers you will be modifying the system to fit with...you usually would go about it by installing the system from the rear up to the front of the crossover and then assessing what needs to be cut/modified from that point to get everything to connect together. I could get the geometry to match up using no more than two U-bends, so you can use that as a go-by.

Fry_

I understand that time constraints would make doing such a test difficult, but as I'm sure you noticed early in this thread a lot of people don't like the idea of having to use mid length headers for a bolt in installation. I do agree that the hp losses of other mid length and shorty headers is likely mostly do to their inferior collector design, but I would still like to see some testing showing what effect the shorter primary tube length has on performance. If the power losses really are as minimal as you expect they would be then I'm sure doing such a test would help sales. As far as looking at the headers as part of a complex system, I'm one of those people that wouldn't have a problem modifying/ building pipes to connect the new exhaust to LT's if the power difference is great enough, but at the same time would love to have the extra ground clearance and bolt in installation if the numbers are close.

Rob WS6

iTrader: (16)

I agree with this. I dont know how I missed this thread for so long, but when I first started reading I was a bit disappointed about the midlength only headers, as with many others. If you could prove that your headers only cost a minimal amount of power for added ground clearance, that would definitely put a lot of peoples minds at ease. You have to understand, LT's have been pushed hard on consumers since these cars were introduced, and even if a well designed mid-length header would only cost a negligible amount of power, proof is what people want to see. If you could provide that, then Im sure you will be rewarded with even more sales.

I currently have 1-3/4" BBK long non-stainless tubes with the BBK 2.5" y pipe and Magnaflow catback, and while I like my system, its not my favorite. And the headers, not being stainless, wont last for ever. If you could provide data that shows going from 1-3/4" long tubes (most common size most people use) to a 1-7/8" mid-length wouldn't be a "downgrade" then Im sold.

Toddoky

Yes, more testing will certainly help folks in making a purchasing decision and I plan on working as much of that into my schedule over the new couple of months as time will permit. There is no single way to approach this type of system that would make everyone happy and there are guys out there that will buy nothing but long tubes even if I could produce dyno sheets that showed a set of mid-lengths made equal power. I myself tend to favor products that enhance the quality of my vehicle overall, so I'll give up 10-15 peak HP as a trade-off for absolute best ground clearance and a sound level inside the vehicle that is not annoying. I'm also not willing to spend three grand on an exhaust system no matter how much power it makes as I have other interests in my life that make it more satisfying to spread my disposable income around more on other things. I realize there are guys out there that are seeking maximum HP and will take lower ground clearance and a much louder interior to get it. It's all fine and good and everyone just needs to decide for themselves what the most important attributes are to them.

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

I am really looking into this system to replace my bassani. Its a great system but i like this since both pipes go over the axle and I could finally run a watts link. However the non lt thing still gets me. I dont care if the mid length headers cost 3hp or 20hp I'm not in the business of making my car lose power when its not needed. Efficiency and getting the most from a mod is what makes cars faster than the norm.

With that said I think holley is going to lose business by making this setup not fit lt's kooks sells the crap out of their system even at their rediculous price. Bassani is almost half the price but doesnt sell nearly as much because of it not fitting lt's and also advertising.

I made my bassani system fit lt's and it took all of 20 min cutting and welding. However I wouldnt want to buy a 800 dollar exhaust and have to cut it up to fit. Thats where i think this is going wrong, many people will look at that and either buy the kooks or just keep what they have. Bottom line is if someone can make the system fit lt's in 20 min then theres no reason holley cant do the same, they do it once and they have the jig forever.

wayland1985

I'm with you. I'm trying to figure out how much it would cost an exhaust shop to modify this in order to meet up with my ARH lts, but it seems only a handful of shops in the area can work with stainless? My thoughts are that perhaps they could simply add another connection up front, and simply sell optional connectors that clamp or weld in.

It's definitely a great looking exhaust at an excellent price point... I'm still interested in hearing it on video, but I think with a couple of simple design changes it would sell like hot cakes.

Toddoky

I hear the long-tube message from yourself and others. The reason that the exhaust system is not currently offered to attach directly to a set of long tubes is that none currently exist in the Hooker product line that meet the build/fitment standards of the new Blackheart line. That may change in the future, but anyone wanting to attach the new Hooker dual set-up to a set of long tubes will need to accomplish it through fabrication. I do appreciate the feedback as it does help influence future new product decisions immensely.

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

i understand how corporate bs goes i just think they arent seeing the big picture. hooker is trying to enter into a market that doesnt really exist. no one really wants to run mid length headers, everyone has lt's and they make more power. ergo there isnt really a market for midlengths. if they become carb approved people in cali might like them but i doubt that could even happen since they move the cats. so in order to run this exhaust without modifcation hooker wants us to sell our lt's and buy their hp losing mid lengths and exhaust.... jsut not smart marketing lol

i know it makes sense to us but not necessarily to them but personally i'd rather sell an 800 dollar exhaust alone than trying to gear it towards their headers and potentially sell much less and make the same or less money.

WAYLAND1985: I don't even know if you need to do that. My bassani system fit my arh's with just cutting it back and bending the pipe a bit. not many shops like to work with stainless because it will crack when you try to expand it with a normal pipe bender, however most shops can do it.

wayland1985

Interesting. I'm really tempted to pull the trigger on this one. My Corsa sounded awesome before I added long tubes. I was thinking about putting a resonator in to curb the rasp, but then I came across this setup....

And seeing as I'm about to get tuned in a couple of weeks anyways, it's tempting to purchase these and do it all at once

Toddoky

You're reading to much into it as there is no marketing BS associated with my statement. The first step of starting this project was to test fit all the existing Hooker 4th-gen F-body long tube headers and see if their geometry would provide the foundation for fitment that was acceptable to us under our new Blackheart product initiative; none were and so with the time constraints imposed on me by the development schedule it was decided to provide something out of the gate the was missing in the market and that was a total performance exhaust system that does not produce an annoying interior exhaust tone, comes with the best ground clearance available and is affordable. It was not decided as part of the effort that this would be the last 4th-gen product we would ever commit ourselves to, so you shouldn't believe that it is or that we don't pay attention to feedback from our customers as to what they would like to see us develop in the future. We are good listeners and take this type of information into high-level discussions within Holley and put it to use.