TJ

iTrader: (10)

when are we going to find out whats wrong with this setup?
im saying the rings are in upside down, or the 2nd ring got mixed up with the top ring(if they are the same in size) or the oil ring support rails were not installed in the pistons, or an oil ring failed, was installed wrong.

did the builder clock the end gaps of the rings?
ive seen motors built where the end caps were all in line and blew oil everywhere.

tillery

iTrader: (4)

Why should TSP pay for someone elses messup. If the shop that did the work messed up, they should fix the problem. A few things could be wrong with his engine, Like rings not gapped/installed correctly. Improperbreak in, Or a total failure of valve guides,seals. Improper torque on heads causing a crack. All these are not TSPs fault, unless they did the work. Now they have fixed anything if they were at fault. Ive been runnung thier dual springs for 37000 miles now( I know they need changing) and had some problems, but its not a problem from them. they usually make a deal to returning customers to keep them returning. BTW I also have parts from other vendors on here so I am not just praising them. If I was closer to the OP Iwould help with the wrenching, I am very mechanically skilled. But without being there its very difficult to pinpoint the problem.

2001z

iTrader: (32)

Im guessing you didnt read the entire thread? Like was stated earlier that it is "almost" impossible that it is the bottom end problem becouse it is on every valve. Also was stated before even from tsp that it is "almost" impossible that it is seals becouse that is extreme amount of oil for it to be seals. He also has replaced the entire pcv and added a catch can and nothing.I think he has gone far and beyond trying to fix the problem that it clearly looks like it is in the heads. If it were me the heads would be on the ups truck right now Just my $.02 and good luck dave

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

AS mentioned above, you obvioulsy did not read the entire thread. I said, IF they did sell him a faulty part they should. And it has yet to be determined if they did, however, this guy that has stared this thread has gone to great lengths in eliminating other potential problems though. read the whole thread to get a better idea of what is going on.

redtail2426

iTrader: (10)

yeah its pretty obvious its not the bottom end people.I said from my first post it was the heads,just take them off and really check them out,it is very difficult to check valve seals without removing the springs and seals totally.

MrDavid

iTrader: (11)

It is not that easy just to pull the heads off to check some valve seals in my case. I bought ARP head studs, which the heads will not lift off of them without colliding on the top of the engine bay. The K-member will have to be dropped to pull them off, which adds even more labor hours.

tillery

iTrader: (4)

Well excuse me. I was replying to another person who probley hasnt read it and saying why dont TSP pay for the labor. And yes I have read it. Im not here to point who is at fault. If he has done a leak down and has determined that it isnt the bottom end then fine. And by eliminating the PVC doesnt rule out bad oil rings, or faulty heads, or install. Unfortunally he still has a problem and is getting the short end of the stick. He has already mentioned maybe a crack in the heads leading to this problem, TSP has offered to inspect them. But he really is aggrivated at having to pay for labor twice and new gaskets for a job that should have been done right in the first place. Now if you are close enough to go and lend a hand then do so. Now As for having head studs, Its still possible to pull them in the car, a bit difficult but possible. Anyway Ill sit back on the sidelines and hope you get your engine fixed and back on the road.

redtail2426

iTrader: (10)

yeah that can make it a little more difficult.good luck on getting it taken care of and we hope to see an end to this problem,so keep us updated when ya can.later

Loadre

iTrader: (5)

Why has a leakdown not been done yet?

That oil is EXTREMELY dirty to only have a couple hundred miles on it......

Jon@Texas-Speed

iTrader: (18)

So you think the problem is in the heads? Inform everyone in this thread where the oil is coming from in the heads. You yourself just said it was unlikely to be coming through the guides. Rocker bolts would be even more unlikely than the guides or seals. I don't know how many motors you have built or even worked on, but oil doesn't get pumped through the head like the bottom end of the engine. Every head that leaves PRC is pressure checked. Not saying that we are perfect but the possibility that a runner is cracked leaking that much oil isn't possible. If that were the case, it would have a HUGE vaccum leak and it would more than likely be on one runner rather than all of them. Knowing that, and as the OP has confirmed, the catch can did not help, so we just ask ourselves where else the oil could be coming from? Maybe the bottom end?

I'm not trying to be a ***** toward you or anyone else for that matter, I just want everyone to actually think before they post. This thread has been going for a month and we are no better informed than the day it was posted. Until some actual hard data is posted on this engine there is no reason for this thread to go any further.

The following needs to happen or this whole thing is a huge waste of time:

-Do a leakdown.

-Ask the builder what the ring gaps are set at.

-What is the sidewall clearances on the pistons?

-Change the seals or pull the heads off and send them back for inspection.

There are 7 pages of absolutely nothing in this thread. At some point the OP has to decide whether or not he wants to fix the problem or if we are all going to keep posting a bunch of "what if" and "could be".

Jon

Jon@Texas-Speed

iTrader: (18)

If you have studs on the car, pull the nut off the stud. Take the proper allen head wrench and loosen the studs and pull them out. They shouldn't be in too tight. Once you get them loose you can pull them out with your fingers just like a bolt. Pull them all out and pull the heads off. There is absolutely no need to drop the k-member.

While your at it, make a weekend out of it. Pick up a set of head gaskets from a vendor or your local dealer and put your factory heads back on the car and see if that fixes the problem. The car should only be down a day then and you are only out a couple hours of your time and a set of $50 GM head gaskets.

www.ls1howto.com will walk you through it.

Jon

NEMESISVETTE

iTrader: (2)

Jon I dont want you to think that you or TSP is being attacked here. How can you say we are no better informed than the day this thread was started? All the issues you wanted us to address have been addressed.
1) PCV was your first Q. Ok well I put a LS6 Valley cover on the car, new PCV valve from the dealership, and new lines.
2) Rocker intake bolts Q. OK well I pulled each one and put high heat teflon tap and Locktight on those and I will say those suckers are nice and sealed.
3) You then wanted a Oil catch can installed. OK well that was done aswell and after driving the car 50 miles you can see all that was collected was Oil vapors and less than a teaspoon of that.
4) Now you have been nice enough to offer new valve seals. Thats nice and all but I removed the springs on 8 valves to check the valve seals and they were on very well and I even checked the clearance recommended my GM. The gap between the seal and the seat is .074 which is in range according to GM ( .071 to .081 ) I did pull 4 seals off to inspect and replaced them with new ones accordingly. So I will also say that valve seals may not be the issue.
AS for the use of the word blowbye..... when I hear someone post that it tells me they have no clue what the problem could be and should stop throwing that word around. Blow bye is a term used to describe the loss of the mixture of air and gas that could be used in the cumbustion chamber escaping past rings to the crank case, NOT the escape of oil up into the cumbustion chamber. This does happen but again Blow bye is not the issue. Its like me telling you that you can poor a bucket of water in the livingroom floor of a burning house and it will show up ontop of the roof of that house ???How can unburnt oil puddle ontop of everyvalve? I will tell you a fact.. you are NOT going to get oil to enter the cumbustion chamber and show up ontop of valves unburnt. FACT. Any oil that would enter the cumbustion chamber would be burnt and spit out the exhaust as smoke, I agree to that. However what we are seeing is puddles of oil ontop of valves so there in lies were the oil is entering the cylinder. Period...... I would agree that its possible for a smoking cars problem to be blowbye if I had seen NO oil ontop of valves, but since its obvious we have UN-Burnt OIL ontop of all valves Puddling . I am not the engine builder, I am the guy David brought his car to. When I first got the car I wanted it to be PCV, rocker bolt, or any other issue just for ease of fix. However after addressing all this and seeing puddles of UN-Burnt oil ontop of every valve I have to say its a defect in the heads.
Jon I want you and TSP to know David, and I have boasted your company's praise for years and that this year alone I have spent over 3k dollars and david has spent alot aswell. I will not bash TSP cuz I know you guys have great products and fantastic customer service which I have personally experienced numerous times and I thank you for that. I just want this issue resolved in a fair manner as im sure TSP does. So lets stop the finger pointing and the knowledge attacks and work together to find the problem. We have done everything you have asked thusfar.

2001z

iTrader: (32)

You could have fooled me you werent trying to be a *****. I am glad i bought my parts from ron@vegeance racing they wouldnt be on here talking to potential customers like you are. Your right im not a pro engine builder but have worked on my share of ls1s over the years to be able to post my opinion which wasnt even towards you in the first place. I have a good friend that had the exact same problem withthe smoking and oil puddling with some dart heads after his motor rebuild and it turned out to be the heads/valve guides. He put some trickflows on there and doesnt smoke one bit anymore.To me since his car idles, runs and feels strong when geting into it that it is very unlikely something in the bottom end especially since the engine builder also said the motor checked out with a compression check and that the other identical motor he built right next to it at the same time hasnt had a single problem.But im not gonna post in this thread anymore since your getting pissy and defensive since everyone on here isnt boasting about your heads. Sorry for the rant david i hope it all works out .I dont have anything against tsp and i have plenty of friends that run there heads/shortblocks and love them

Jon@Texas-Speed

iTrader: (18)

I think you guys missed my point. This thread has been going for over a month. So far we have eliminated one thing, the PCV. In reality we knew the rocker bolts wouldn't cause what you are seeing as well as bad seals. Now that we know that, we have to move forward to find the problem. I'm sorry if i get aggrivated with post after post blaming the heads or talking about TSP paying this and that when NOTHING has been done to confirm if the heads are the problem or if it is something else. We always stand behind every TSP/PRC product we sell. You can find thread after thread where we go out of our way to help customers in every way possible. David's problem isn't any different. It doesn't matter if someone in here likes our heads or not as long as they are posting here in an effort to help resolve the problem at hand. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me what the problem ends up being as long as the problem is fixed. I want David to enjoy the car exactly as it should be. I know how much he has spent on just the parts alone and don't think for a second that we don't appreciate every penny spent with us. But that doesn't change the fact that we can't fix what we didn't build or that we can't fix the heads that are not at TSP. We want to help. That's why we keep posting in here with ideas and asking for information that might lead to the problem. But at some point there has to be work done to move this thing along if David is ever going to fix the problem.

Jon

Jon@Texas-Speed

iTrader: (18)

Normally I would agree with you but this case, whatever the problem is it apprears to be pretty extreme. Here's a thought if unburnt oil can not get into the combustion chambers, then how do the spark plugs have so much unburnt oil on them? They are in the chambers.
[/

Just something that popped in my head so I thought I would throw it out there.

Jon

STMPDUST

I have had this problem before on my SBC, it wasnt an LS motor, but i think i know whats wrong here to make a long story short(yes i have read the complete thread) again this is just my thoughts and guess, you have a small leak on top of one of your heads, could just be a pin hole, and probably is, or a small crack in the casting, it only needs to be on one head as the vacume at idle will transport oil all around the manifold and 2 both sides of the head, , leave the heads on and get a flat piece of metal that will seal across all 4 intake ports, make it where you can add pressure port from a leakdown gauge on each intake port, put pressure in each runner, make sure all rockers are backed off, , i think you will find the problem, just trying to help!

you could block off the manifold flange at the TB and put a test plate there also, just not sure how much air pressure you can add if you go that route

NEMESISVETTE

iTrader: (2)

When you turn a motor off valves are still in a open position. At any givin point 12 to 14 of the valves would remain open as the car is shut off thus explaining the oil running off the valve head and onto the spark plugs.

NHRAFORMULA00

iTrader: (2)

My guess is the rings are not installed properly.Who ever assembled the engine is responsible for the problem.A leak down test would be first in order.

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

I have a question for Jon. I'm not trying to be a dick at all, this is a serious question. You say he needs to do a leak down test, check ring gaps, and piston to wall clearance. My question is, if any of those were out of speck then there would be too much blow by correct?

SpeedracerZ06, I don't think anyone is saying the blow by is causing oil to get past the rings, through the combustion chamber and ontop of the valves. But blow by would cause pressure in the crankcase which would force oil vapor out the pcv system.

So back to Jon, if the blow by was forcing oil out the PVC valve, wouldn't it all be getting caught by the catch can at this point? That should eliminate blow by as a way for oil to get on top of the valves.

It seems unlikely that valve seals are the problem, especially considering that SpeedracerZ06 has looked at them and even replaced some, but it is possible that it's a guide/seal problem because sometimes what we see at a static state is much different that what is going on when the engine is running.

Anyway, even if no one can pinpoint the cause from what we now know, why are people still saying it's a ring/short block problem when there is a catch can in place?

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

I would also like to say. I've been burned on jobs before when I assumed things. Always check the basics and never assume anything. I would check the leak down just for the heck of it to rule out the possibility of oil getting past the rings and into the combustion chamber. Yeah the oil couldn't get on top of the valves that way but never neglect to check the basic stuff like leak down.