Before I would go blaming other internal part's I would do a simple leak down and compression test just to make sure everything else is up to par..Good luck with your set up man...I hope everything works out for you,

Carter

 

Edge Hawk- Explain to me exactly what part of this is my fault?? I took the car to professionals, and had them install the parts that they recommended to me. These parts have not performed up to par, IMO, for whatever reason.

Is it really true that the difference between a tight engine and a loose engine can be 30 HP? One would think ARE would set engines up with looser tolerances for maximum HP. Why did I lose another 22 HP after approx. 10K break-in miles?

I have read on this board where other people get slammed for not taking their car back to whatever sponsor they have a problem with. From personal experience, I can tell you why people make that decision- right or wrong.

1.) It often is not practical for customers from out of state to return. Time off from work, travel expenses, etc...even if the problem is resolved for free, the trip is not free.
2.) Customers have lost confidence in the vendor- due to personal experience and/or other things they have heard about the vendor.
3.) The vendor shows very little interest in helping you once he has your money. He may deny there is a problem, or point the finger at some other part of your combination. Passing the buck seems to be commonplace.

FWIW, I tried to take these issues up with Mikey, which was going through the proper channels since I bought the engine from him, and he installed it. He felt there was no problem- attributed the difference in dyno numbers to variance between dynos. 30 RWHP variance?? I gotta call BS on that, and I think most of you would agree.

Edge Hawk- I did alot of research before I bought these parts. A lot of the negative stories never get posted on the boards, or get deleted quickly. I cannot say for sure that happens here, but I know it happens on ls1.com.

I bought this car in 1999. Extensive, careful research was done before any modifications were made. I thought if I was careful and smart I could avoid the problems others have had. I was wrong.

 

Sorry to hear your problems. I have JPR S2 heads and the TR 224/224 112 and the engine built by JPR yet only put down 405 RWHP 400 ft/lbs torque , with tuning. JPR had a lifter collapse on him the day before I flew out to pick up the car; he did stay up all night to fix the problem and still meet me at the airport by 9:00am though. I'll dyno up here in Cleveland before deciding what to do, plus run the track at least once. Good luck man.

 

Viper- sorry to hear about your problems, as well. JPR had a lifter collapse during a test run after my H/C install, and then decided to change pushrod lengths. Alot of this stuff seems like guesswork- I thought it was more cut and dried. Mikey and Joe both went back and forth over what length pushrods to use- 7.35 or 7.40- they both seemed uncertain. Obviously, pushrod length is critical to proper lifter preload. Apparently, lifter problems are not that uncommon on LS1s, which I was not aware of until recently.

Viper, you still have 15 more HP than me, and 24 more TQ, but your numbers are too low. I thought JPR had a "power guarantee" with his packages? You should ask him about it. He had hoped to see 440-450 RWHP out of my car, so we were both disappointed with 422. Imagine how I feel now about 390 when I was told I would have 440-450? That's a big difference. I think Joe only guaranteed me 420-430, so my numbers at JD's were okay, just not spectacular.

 

Ok, not your fault. Not a slam on you, but i would say this isn't ARE's fault.

Basically you put a new engine in. Engines have variances to begin with from the factory. Is it possible you thought you would instantly be at the same or better HP level with no problems? There are always little problems along the way. I mean if your old tune was based on that engine, and if you were having blow-by and oil consumption issues, your mixture in the cylinder is different than what's in the cylinder now. So it may take a few tunes to get it done right. Add to that you have a tighter engine now, and I could see that making the difference.

 

Edge- on that point I think we can agree- ARE is not at fault. I just wish I had known that a new shortblock didn't come with new lifters. To be honest, I never thought about it- this is the first engine I have ever bought. Chalk it up as an EXPENSIVE learning experience. But I doubt many of the experts would have recommended changing the lifters, anyway. I just feel more thorough troubleshooting could have been done to investigate the lower than expected dyno numbers- because YES, I expected a new engine and a better tune to produce MORE power, not LESS. Why the hell else would I have spent all that money? No one promised me more power, but I certainly was led to believe I would MOST LIKELY see more power with a fresh shortblock and a better tune- not 32 RWHP less.

Now I want opinions from the board- Why are we seeing all these lifter failures? I see very few sponsors recommending lifter upgrades with heads and cam installs- should they be?

 

You know I am getting sick and tired of reading crap like this Edge.....

Here is the point. People like BAD SS and I do lots of research before buying parts and having them installed. If I wanted something done half *** I would take it down to the local performance shop and have them do it. Instead we come here to this site and research who is the best installer close to us. Then we make EXPENSIVE accomidations to travel hours out of our way to have parts installed by LS1 PROFESSIONALS. We end up getting things that look like they were installed by LS1 pre-schoolers.

I agree that Mike would have tried to take care of BADSS if he had pressured him. The point is we should not have to pressure anyone. It should be done right the first time. Vendors should not push parts that are not prooven reliable, or parts that they do not have experience with. Vendors should not mix and match a hodge podge of shortblocks, heads, and cams, they should provide turn-key jobs. And above all vendors should not push someone out the door that has driven hundered of miles and spent thousands of dollars to have parts installed professionally.

I had this misconception for a long time that when you take your car to a professional who works on LS1s constantly you would get *Great* quality work. Well let me tell you, I have since started doing all of my work on my own and things have turned out much much better. Granted I could not put together a short-block or do dyno tuning but things like bolt-ons, camshafts, heads, and other small stuff have been much better done myself with some help from friends.

Last year I had $3000 worth of work done to my car by two sponsors of this board. FLP LT headers, RAM 910 VDS clutch, LS1 Edit tuning, Used "quiet" 3.73 10 bolt,....

1) My headers were istalled quickly not to notice an air tube rubbing my AC lines => busted AC lines => New AC lines & a recharge

2) My tuning was copied and pasted from another customers similar car to mine then slapped on the dyno for three pulls and your out => an extremely rich dyno tune with O2 readings that are now constantly in the 950-970MV range. When contacting my tuner I get "I think you are maxed out on tuning" .

3) My clutch was like an on-off switch and chattered so bad that I now have something broken and loose in my dash that rattles => After 1200 miles I removed the clutch and insalled an LS6 clutch only to see that the clutch disk and Flywheel were destroyed....Thats right 1200 miles of "Break in driving" no trips to the track on street tires destroyed my clutch. In defense RAM and my installer did work with me to get a replacement clutch which I propmtly sold with a disclaimer (at a BIG loss).

4) My rear-end was shipped out and I installed it. It instantly started whining.... I tore it down to find the posi unit in pieces and the pinion depth waaaaayyyyy off => I tore the rear end down and had it re-built at my expense.

So I guess by the logic in this thread it is all my fault because I did not turn around and drive 7 hours to force the installer to pull out my clutch and insall a new one....And force my installer to get my 02 readings down into the .880-.9 MV range that they should be in for a decent tune....Its my fault that I did not pay another 150 dollars to have a busted rear end shipped back to the vendor I bought it from.

This short block was built by ARE, the logblock was assmebled and installed by RAPID (An ARE licensed intaller) so how could the blame fall anywere else? Sorry to rant but I get tired of you guys defending half-assed work. If I spent 6K on an installed shortblock I would damn well expect it to be right when the installer was done.

-Nick

 

I can see the dillemma here. Who is responsible for the preload on the lifters? It should be whoever bolts the heads on the block. When the heads go on, preload can be measured. The problem is, that on engines with fixed rockers (LS1), people just slap them together and ship them out without checking it.

If you still haven't checked your preload, your probably just going to be replacing your lifters again in another 10,000 miles anyways. Just something to think about.

-Geoff

 

Thank you, Nick. Finally someone who understands exactly where I am coming from! Whatever happened to people taking pride in their work? I would not take that much money from a customer (or any money, for that matter) unless I was sure everything was right. Maybe its just me.

White Hawk- what is the proper lifter preload for stock LS1 lifters? It seems different people have different opinions on acceptable preload.

 

Absolutely you should expect to instantly be at a better horsepower level with no problems - that's why you drop $6000 to have a professional replace your tired stock bottom end with a new ARE shortblock.

If you wanted to deal with little problems along the way, you would do it in your garage at home, and save some money on labor.
If you spend $6000, someone else should be dealing with the problems, and when you get the car back all you should have to do is turn the key.

 

Exactly.


And you know I think the fact that your 35K mile shortblock was tired in the first place is suspect. Has anyone else heard of something like this? Did you buy your car used from a driving school or something? What kind of injectors were used in your car with the initial H/C install? EZSS posted something very similar to this (low dyno results and lots of blow-by). It sounded to me like he got a bad tune with injectors that were too large which caused fuel wash and ruined the rings .

 

Nick- stock 99 injectors. I was supposed to get an LS1 Edit dyno tune from JPR when the heads and cam were installed, but Joe's Edit cable was dead or something, so a MAFT tune was all I got. This was in addition to a mail order Ed Wright program which was extremely lean and had massive KR. I believe the poor tune contributed to the demise of my stock shortblock.

The stock shortblock passed a compression test with acceptable numbers, but you could literally see smoke coming off my Metco valve cover breather on the dyno. Joe said this indicated blowby. He had me convinced the bottom end was shot, but now I am not so sure. The engine did start to develop a knock at cold temps in addition to burning a quart of oil every 500 miles, so I decided to replace it. Still not sure if I made the right call, but its done now. I couldn't believe an engine that had been well maintained could be worn out at such low mileage, either.

Who did your tuning, Nick? I understand if you don't want to name names, but that is total BS- your tuning is "maxed out"? WTF does that mean? We need to start calling these guys out on this stuff- they must think we are pretty stupid.

 

Ok it was already hinted in some of the posts but if you go from stock pistons to stock replacement forged pistons with valve reliefs you're going to loose CR significantly unless you mill the heads. For example for JE stock replacement -2cc pistons you need to drop head CC to 64 in order to maintain 10:1 ( just an example ). What was the original head CC and how large are the valve reliefs ? If CR drops too much the cam and CR combo may not work as well as before.

 

I say,install the lifters and see if it fixes it.If it does,bash away on your installer.If not,insert foot in mouth!!!

Some shops act like they don't care about customers.The sad part is that is life..I try not to operate like that by giving my customer my personal phone # and answer any question they have.Some customers you just can not help though.

So,please change those lifters and tell us how you make out...I had a lifter collapse with only 5k miles on my car.It ticked like a bastard.

 

The pistons have -2cc valve reliefs. I was told this would not be a major issue- would cost me maybe .1 of compression. I don't know the size of the combustion chamber- would have to ask JPR. The heads were supposed to be milled for 10.5:1 compression. In addition to replacing the lifters, the piston height will be checked so I can mill the heads and/or run a thinner head gasket if necessary. The heads will also be flow tested to make sure they are performing the way they should, and touched up if needed. Heads will then be milled for 11.5:1 compression- Jeff says he can tune for that on pump gas. The compression bump alone should be worth 10 HP. If the engine still doesn't perform, I will save up for a rebuild using a stroker crank- I want to go with a 383 at some point, anyway. I just cannot afford to do that right now- this project is already WAY OVER budget, needless to say.

 

Sent PM

 

I agree with above.People don't relize how important it is to tune the car ASAP after a new motor is installed.The fueling and timing need to be set for breaking,then Dyno tuning after at least 500 miles.That 20 minute breakin is BS.I've seen alot of shortblocks wash down rings/cylinders within 1000 miles of the new motor.

 

BadSS please edit the title of your post.

ARE is not at fault for the lifter problems. Lifters arent even included with the shortblock from ARE.

Lifters fail all the time (especially stockers) With the aggressive ramp rates of our cams it is very common.

Chris

 

Colin, I am EXTREMELY surprised by this post! The last e-mail and phone conversations with you were in June! You said the car ran well but were dissappointed in your track times which by the way you said was your fault! You also said that your MPH seemed low but the DA was +3000. I had no idea that you were this upset. What were your track times when the car dynoed 422? Were the DA's the same? Were you there for that dyno session? Remember I showed you several other examples of claimed dyno numbers not showing up at the Performance dyno? If you had the springs changed to something with higher seat pressures then the lifter change was only a matter of time. You bought an assembled rotating assembly from me. Not a short block and not a motor. It did not come with lifters or cam. We re-used all your stuff which is what you wanted. Why are you blaming the rotating? Did you leak down the motor before performing any modifications to springs, etc? You know full well I would have taken care of you if there was an issue, it's just that I don't think there was any with the short. I've done too many of those now and they all work great. Do you remember me working all day and through the night to assemble your engine so you could get back home the next day? Please don't try to flame me if you don't have the FACTS to back it. Are you 100% sure it's a problem with ARE's rotating?

I'll even make you a deal, I'll pay for your hotel, leak the motor down while you watch. If it leaks ok, we install a set of my heads and cam and go back to the dyno. If we pick up power, you pay for the heads / cam and all the labor. If not, I'll eat everything. My e-mail address and phone number is still the same Colin....

All you folks that love to jump on the bash wagon feel free.

 

*edited*

Also, if lifters were a component that needed to be replaced BAD SS should have been notified either by RAPID or ARE. I personally think that the stock lifters are fine for this setup and did not need to be replaced. It was probably a problem with preload from the install as mentioned above, this does not change the fact that RAPID is an ARE authorized installer, and ARE should be held partially responsible if there is indeed a problem.

Mike are you around man? What is your side of this?

*Edited* Mike, take note of this. I have read this four or five times now about vendors mixing and matching parts to have bad results. Dont let someone spend 6K in your shop and slap on inferior heads (if that is what you are saying the problem is, its definately not the cam). It makes you look bad ultimately. No flame intended just some advice from what I have seen as of late.