BADSS

iTrader: (7)

About a year and a half ago, I had JPR S2 heads and a TR 224/224 112 LSA cam installed in my 99 SS M6 up at JPR. It dynoed 422 RWHP at JD's, but I was having major blowby and oil consumption issues. Idle quality and drivability were also poor, which JPR attributed to the stock shortblock being shot. 6 to 8 months later, I had Mike Kleman at Rapid Motorsports install an ARE 346 shortblock in my car and dyno tune it at Performance Specialties. The car dynoed 392 RWHP, which was a major disappointment, to say the least. With a fresh shortblock and better tune (I had a mail-order Ed Wright program when I dynoed 422 on the stock shortblock), I was expecting to gain power not LOSE 32 RWHP. Mikey basically said "oh, well. that's all that's in it." I was not satisfied, and the car only ran a best of 13.26 at 110 mph on Nittos. Granted, this was at Bristol with a fairly high DA (3000+), but the numbers still sucked, IMO. I am sure that a better driver could have gotten better numbers out of the car, but the MPH indicated that the power was off. The tune was better than before, but not perfect- there were still issues with hunting and surging at idle, occasional stalling, cam surge at low speeds, and pinging at part throttle. I took the car to Jeff Creech at Carolina Auto Masters for another tune- I was hoping to pick up some more power and solve the idle and drivability issues, and he accomplished both objectives. I have been very impressed with Jeff- would highly recommend him to anyone in the Carolinas. The baseline pull at CAM was 370- somehow, I had lost another 22 RWHP since the last dyno. After hours of tuning, Jeff squeezed 390 out of it through an open cutout, air filter removed. Best of 387 through full exhaust and air filter in place. Jeff expected a bare minimum of 415, so we were both puzzled. The peak numbers were off, and the graph dropped like a rock at about 6400 RPM. Jeff suspected valvetrain issues- either bent pushrods or weak valvesprings. I had him install some Crane dual springs and Yella Terra roller rockers this week, but unfortunately, no bad valvesprings or bent pushrods were found. The smoking gun ended up being BAD LIFTERS in practically a brand-new engine- the ARE 346 shortblock. Apparently, the added pressure from the stronger springs and stiffer rockers were more than the weak lifters could handle. Jeff feels that although the lifters never completely collapsed, they have been weak for some time and costing me power up top. I am going to have him pull the heads and replace the lifters. Hopefully, I will pick up 30-40 RWHP when this all over. This will end up being a very expensive experience after already dropping 6K at Rapid for a package that SHOULD have been bulletproof and a very strong runner. It proved to be anything but. Now I know some of you are saying: why didn't you go back to Rapid when you had problems? Why didn't you send the engine back to ARE (it is still under warranty)? To answer: I live in Virginia. Its an 8-10 hour drive to Rapid, and frankly, Mikey didn't seem the least bit interested in helping me solve my problems. In fact, he gave me the impression there was NO PROBLEM. I also have heard enough horror stories about ARE lately that I did not feel comfortable sending the engine back to them. Besides, unless they were willing to pay the shipping both ways, the cost of shipping alone would have been more than the parts and labor to replace the lifters. So I decided to let someone I TRUST do the work at my expense- Jeff Creech. I am not posting this to flame anyone, just to say BUYER BEWARE. I am very disappointed in the service I got from Mike Kleman at Rapid, and in the engine I received from ARE. It seems there are alot of people in this business willing to take your money and not deliver the goods.

JoeyGC5

iTrader: (24)

That sucks hope the lifters help, going with the stockers again or upgrading to the ???

ezss

I wonder if Mikey checked the valvetrain setup setup or just installed it onto the block. I would think the ARE block has comp R lifters (because if it doesnt have some reinforced internals I dont know why you would pay extra for a 346), in which case I would assume he would have, because those lifters take less preload than the stockers, but I know he is aware of that.

I had a similar situation (which you can search for to save me some typing) with loss of top end power and major oil problems, and it was also collapsed lifters because of valetrain setup issues, but there were possibly other problems as well.

Anyhow, my point is if you are not going to send it back to ARE (and I know from experince myself this is a pain) then make sure your valvetrain setup is good. Good luck!

Krazy98Z28

iTrader: (12)

I totally dont understand your issue, you had bad lifters and your blaming ARE???? Did you use the same lifters u had in the old motor???

onfire

iTrader: (17)

I hate to hear about the bad quality Colin. BTW I receive your emails but everyone I send to you keep coming back????? New address?

bodhi

Areyou certain that the lifters are the only concern? You might wanna check the cylinder pressure/ bleeddown- just to insurethe rings are OK.
Check with QUICKEN about his ARE problems. He's in a similar boat.

CHRISPY

Edited as I misread the original post

Krazy98Z28

iTrader: (12)

Chris this is a 346 shortblock, It was my understanding he just bought the shortblock from ARE. Thats why I asked why is he blaming the motor built by ARE

CHRISPY

DOH!! For some reason I thought 436!!

Still I dont understand what the shortblock had to do with the lifters failing and the valvetrain being out of whack.

SilverGhost

iTrader: (53)

100 cubes?

everything i just read is that its a 346 motor still.

what i do wonder though is if the lifters from his first motor were re-used, if that's the case that sure isn't ARE's fault.

Reboot

iTrader: (5)

Who installed and adjusted the valvetrain? Did you re-use your stock lifters or go with new ones? If a shop installed and adjusted your valvetrain with new lifters take it back to them. If you re-used your old lifters it's on you.

CHRISPY

Also how do you know the lifters are bad? Are you seeing excess slop up by the rockers? excess noise?

Did you have a look at the pistons at TDC to see if they were in the hole or out of the hole slightly like stock?

Depending on what the setup is with the pistons you may need to adjust gasket thickness to maintain adequate quench. That alone can be worth 20RWHP.

There are MANY things you need to consider before blaming that shortblock IMO

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

My understanding is that the ARE shortblock came with new lifters- but I could be wrong. If so, I apologize for pointing the finger at ARE. Maybe Mikey or someone from ARE could chime in and answer this question: Does the 346 shortblock come with new lifters or are the lifters from the customer's old engine reused?

Tom- Hey, good to hear from you! New e-mail address is dsa@inet4u.com . We moved back to Henderson, NC. Hope your car is running well.

It is important to understand that this heads and cam combination made 422 RWHP with a SHOT STOCK SHORTBLOCK and a bad tune. The only things that were changed were the shortblock and the tune. BTW, the car only has 37K miles on it- I couldn't believe the stock shortblock gave out so soon. My luck has been ALL BAD with this car- just ask Tom (Onfire).

Chris- this post was not intended as flamebait. These problems and my frustrations have been ongoing for about two years now. The ARE engine has been in the car less than a year, and probably has about 10K miles on it now. It has not been ragged or abused. NO nitrous, no missed shifts, and only 3 passes down the track before my ring and pinion broke on the 10 bolt.


EZSS- what's going on with your car? I have followed your problems, and I wish you luck. We e-mailed back and forth a few times.

JoeyGC5- I'm staying with stock replacement lifters- either Comp or Crane. My understanding is it is difficult to get the preload correct with the Comp R lifters without adjustable rockers. The Yella Terras are non-adjustable.

Bodhi- when the heads are off everything will be checked, rest assured. I will post the findings, but it will probably be after New Year's. What was the deal with QUICKEN's engine? I have heard of ARE using the wrong pistons, pistons too far down the hole, etc...Granted, this is all hearsay, but usually where there's smoke, there's fire.

Does anyone know if lifters are included with the ARE shortblock? If not, why would lifters fail at relatively low mileage? Valvetrain setup improperly?

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

Chris- Jeff heard what he thought was a lifter problem after installing the Yella Terras and the Crane duals. He pulled the valve covers again, and found slop in the rockers. He is 100% sure it is a lifter problem. I will try to get him to post on here, as I did not witness any of this first-hand. Why would the quench area change with a stock replacement shortblock? It has forged, flat top pistons with valve reliefs. Besides, if it needed a different head gasket wouldn't Mikey have known that? He is a certified ARE installer- they will honor your warranty if he does the install.

Krazy98Z28

iTrader: (12)

ARE shortblock does not come with Lifters.

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

I believe some dual springs require the use of the Comp Rs as the seat pressures will collapse a stock lifter and yes, you need adjustable rockers with the Comp Rs.

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

Reboot- all the install work and tuning was done by Mike Kleman at Rapid Motorsports in PA. Considering he has installed any number of these engines as well as many heads and cam install jobs, I assumed he knew what he was doing.

If we are looking to assign blame, it either lies with ARE, Rapid, or both.

In fairness to ARE, I have only e-mailed them and made no other efforts to contact them. I am NOT SAYING they would not honor my warranty. I explained my reasons for not dealing with them in my first post.

Rapid did not seem very interested in helping me solve my problems. I contacted Mikey several times via e-mail or phone calls. Maybe I should have been more assertive.

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

Country Boy- I think lots of people are using the Crane dual springs with stock lifters. Thunder Racing has excellent customer service, so I am sure if I needed to upgrade the lifters they would have said so when the Cranes were ordered, and they didn't.

The valvetrain was NOT setup wrong, the lifters are just bad according to Jeff. There may be other problems discovered when the heads are removed.

Okay, if the lifters didn't come with the shortblock then ARE is not to blame. I apologize to ARE.

However, Mikey should have tried to do some troubleshooting on his own when my dyno numbers were off 32 RWHP. I think that would have been the right thing to do, considering I spent 6K with Rapid. He just seemed in a hurry to get rid of me and get onto the next job.

Edge Hawk

Some of the blame is on you too man, Every engine is different. The difference in HP could have easily been chalked up to a difference in a broken in engine and a new tight one.

Case in point, when my car was stock 307 rwhp, then 312 rwhp after 7000 miles, then 320 after another 20K. Not to mention different dynoes.

Also, I would have made every effort to resolve your concerns with Rapid and ARE first and only posted up if you got a "Tough Luck dude, you are on your own." from them.

I have met Wade in person at his shop. I do not have any ARE parts, i drove someone up to pick up their car. I haven't met Mikey yet either, so I'm not affliated with them.

Instead of buyer beware, it should be Buyer do some research first.

mike c.

iTrader: (1)

i have one of ARE's shortblocks and i have had great luck with it. it has performed well on the street and at the track with no additional tuning.i have met both wade and berry and they treated me great during my visit,they dont like to return phone calls,but from what i've seen they are real buisy. GOODLUCK with your problems i hope the new lifters solve it.