Lifter Problems with 346
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,341
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Quikin, You should post ANOTHER thread stating what the problem actually was with the engine and that ARE was NOT at fault...
That would be the gentlemanly thing to do considering all the negative press given to ARE over this motor.
BADSS I would expect you to do the same if the lifters are indeed the problem (Which they probably are given the rocker slack. (Unless valves have been in contact with the pistons) At which point it is STILL NOT ARE's fault.
That would be the gentlemanly thing to do considering all the negative press given to ARE over this motor.
BADSS I would expect you to do the same if the lifters are indeed the problem (Which they probably are given the rocker slack. (Unless valves have been in contact with the pistons) At which point it is STILL NOT ARE's fault.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: SC
I was debating about not piping in again, but I strongly believe the customer should not have been allowed to leave with a car that dynoed 392rwhp h/c with a built shortblock. Something was obviously wrong -- was a compression/leakdown test done that time? What was done to see what the problem was? Whether or not its an ARE problem or a JPR problem, something should have been identified at that time and looked into.
His car made 422 rwhp before, yes on a different dyno, but we also know the difference from JD's dyno to PS dyno is 5-10rwhp (at least it has been on my pulls, a dozen or so at PS and probably 50+ a JD's). This situation upsets me because it touches close to home. How could he be expected to be happy with spending all that money and come out way behind where he was at before?
His car made 422 rwhp before, yes on a different dyno, but we also know the difference from JD's dyno to PS dyno is 5-10rwhp (at least it has been on my pulls, a dozen or so at PS and probably 50+ a JD's). This situation upsets me because it touches close to home. How could he be expected to be happy with spending all that money and come out way behind where he was at before?
422 was not with cats, no. But if you recall I had an ORY (you installed) when we dynoed at Performance Specialties. I have since then installed Carsound cats in order to pass VA inspection, but I thought good high-flow cats cost very little power. The 422 # was SAE corrected. To answer your previous question: if it turns out not to be the lifters, we will look for all other possible problems including having the heads flowed. I guess if the heads end up being the problem I will send them out to be reported, just not sure who to send them to at this point.
Erik, he needed to get back home to VA. That's why I worked the weekend to accomodate his schedule. How was he supposed to get back home without a car? Again, I ask the above questions and ask to post or see the original sheet so I can compare it with the one from PS. Let the leak down test be done and we'll see what happens.
Colin, this post is damaging to ARE and myself because you specifically mention my business and me personally in a negative manor several times. Again, if the leak test fails, I will take full responsibilty to replace the ARE rotating. But again, I want to perform it here. There were no signs of lifter issues when I assembled your motor and I would be very surprised to see that fix the problem although I hope it does for your sanity. At this point are you 100% sure that the rotating is the problem? Did you do test on the motor to determine this? If you didn't then why accuse ARE's rotating? It's just not right my friend.
Also, dyno the car without the Y pipe and see what happens.
Colin, this post is damaging to ARE and myself because you specifically mention my business and me personally in a negative manor several times. Again, if the leak test fails, I will take full responsibilty to replace the ARE rotating. But again, I want to perform it here. There were no signs of lifter issues when I assembled your motor and I would be very surprised to see that fix the problem although I hope it does for your sanity. At this point are you 100% sure that the rotating is the problem? Did you do test on the motor to determine this? If you didn't then why accuse ARE's rotating? It's just not right my friend.
Also, dyno the car without the Y pipe and see what happens.
Last edited by mikey; Dec 22, 2003 at 10:19 AM.
EZSS- good info, thanks. I always wondered what the difference was between JD's dyno and Performance Specialties. So I should be within 5-10 HP of the 422 I dynoed at JD's- so say I should be at 412 (minimum)- so I'm off 22 HP (390).
Mike- If you read my first post carefully, I blame the lifters. The only reason ARE was implicated was because I (incorrectly) was told the lifters came with the ARE 346. I would have left the car with you if you had felt you needed to run some diagnostics- I could have rented a car. Sure, it would have been an inconvenience, but I would rather have done that than gone home dissatisfied. I cannot post the dyno sheets, I don't have a scanner- if you like I can fax them to you. Do you have a fax machine? I can tell you the power drops like a rock at 6400 RPMs, which is why Jeff suspected valvetrain issues. Did my dyno sheet from Performance Specialties do that? You see what EZSS said- if the dyno variance is 5-10 RWHP, why do you think I lost another 20 RWHP on top of the normal variance? To my knowledge, nothing was changed besides the shortblock, the tuning, and the ORY which should have improved flow over the POS Grot y-pipe I had previously.
Chris- the MAC cats are known to be terrible. Carsounds are supposed to flow very well- look at the catalytic converter flow-testing done on www.installuniversity.com . Anyway, there were no cats on the car when it was dynoed at PS- only on my most recent run at CAM.
Mike- If you read my first post carefully, I blame the lifters. The only reason ARE was implicated was because I (incorrectly) was told the lifters came with the ARE 346. I would have left the car with you if you had felt you needed to run some diagnostics- I could have rented a car. Sure, it would have been an inconvenience, but I would rather have done that than gone home dissatisfied. I cannot post the dyno sheets, I don't have a scanner- if you like I can fax them to you. Do you have a fax machine? I can tell you the power drops like a rock at 6400 RPMs, which is why Jeff suspected valvetrain issues. Did my dyno sheet from Performance Specialties do that? You see what EZSS said- if the dyno variance is 5-10 RWHP, why do you think I lost another 20 RWHP on top of the normal variance? To my knowledge, nothing was changed besides the shortblock, the tuning, and the ORY which should have improved flow over the POS Grot y-pipe I had previously.
Chris- the MAC cats are known to be terrible. Carsounds are supposed to flow very well- look at the catalytic converter flow-testing done on www.installuniversity.com . Anyway, there were no cats on the car when it was dynoed at PS- only on my most recent run at CAM.
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Verdad Gallardo Chris- good info, thanks. Totally goes against what most people say- I have heard 3-5 HP, max, with good cats. I will get rid of the cats when I redyno and see if that helps.
PM me for the fax number. I'll call Ray at PS to get a fax of your dyno runs. I don't recall it dropping sharply. That's usually a sign of valve float or a fuel pump giving up. Seen the float thing lately on several cars with YT rockers...
Sent you a PM, Mike.
The dyno runs were made before the Yella Terras were installed, so they're not the issue.
I have replaced the fuel pump recently, too. A/F ratio looks good on the wideband- you will be able to see that on the dyno sheets. Stock 99 injectors, but Jeff says I am not running out of injector at this point. Plenty of fuel all the way up to 7K RPMs.
The dyno runs were made before the Yella Terras were installed, so they're not the issue.
I have replaced the fuel pump recently, too. A/F ratio looks good on the wideband- you will be able to see that on the dyno sheets. Stock 99 injectors, but Jeff says I am not running out of injector at this point. Plenty of fuel all the way up to 7K RPMs.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,484
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From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
Originally Posted by BADSS
Sent you a PM, Mike.
The dyno runs were made before the Yella Terras were installed, so they're not the issue.
I have replaced the fuel pump recently, too. A/F ratio looks good on the wideband- you will be able to see that on the dyno sheets. Stock 99 injectors, but Jeff says I am not running out of injector at this point. Plenty of fuel all the way up to 7K RPMs.
The dyno runs were made before the Yella Terras were installed, so they're not the issue.
I have replaced the fuel pump recently, too. A/F ratio looks good on the wideband- you will be able to see that on the dyno sheets. Stock 99 injectors, but Jeff says I am not running out of injector at this point. Plenty of fuel all the way up to 7K RPMs.
I've been reading this thread here and there and in no particular order here are some thoughts...
-422rwhp at dyno 1, 392rwhp at dyno 2, can't compare dynos most of the time but the various is big enough that I would have rechecked things like fueling and the compression of the engine
-What did the car run mph-wise with the 422rwhp setup?
-I went 11.7@114mph at home, and 12.4@108mph at Bristol in 2000. DA was 4000.
-"the lifters are bad" from shop 3. I didn't see the post where you posted the new numbers, refresh my memory?
-422rwhp at dyno 1, 392rwhp at dyno 2, can't compare dynos most of the time but the various is big enough that I would have rechecked things like fueling and the compression of the engine
-What did the car run mph-wise with the 422rwhp setup?
-I went 11.7@114mph at home, and 12.4@108mph at Bristol in 2000. DA was 4000.
-"the lifters are bad" from shop 3. I didn't see the post where you posted the new numbers, refresh my memory?
i think you should bring the car back to Mikey and let him do the test in front of you and he is willing to put you up in a hotel and make good on the ARE rotating if he finds it to be a problem
as for 422 with that cam and JPR heads well ......
we have never seen that kind of power with that cam and heads using several different brand stage 2 heads the norm is 390-low 400s from what we have seen
just like what Mikey saw
Mikey is a stand up person and i feel 100% confident that if something is wrong that came out of his shop he will take steps to correct it and make it right
good luck with your situation
as for 422 with that cam and JPR heads well ......
we have never seen that kind of power with that cam and heads using several different brand stage 2 heads the norm is 390-low 400s from what we have seen
just like what Mikey saw
Mikey is a stand up person and i feel 100% confident that if something is wrong that came out of his shop he will take steps to correct it and make it right
good luck with your situation
PSJ,
To answer your questions:
The car was never run at the track after dynoing 422- due to the poor health of the stock shortblock, JPR advised against it. I was waiting for JPR to build me a new engine, but after waiting 6-8 months I got impatient and decided to get the ARE shortblock from Rapid.
Some of the poor track performance may be attributable to torque management- my most recent tuning session indicated TM had not been disabled in the previous tune.
Most recent dyno numbers were: 370 baseline, 390 after tuning through an open cutout, pulled the air filter. In fairness to Mike, I had made some changes that may have affected the tune- so I'm not saying his tune left 20 HP on the table. I had changed the lid, MAF, catback, and put cats back on the car. I am sure these changes affected the A/F ratio somewhat.
To answer your questions:
The car was never run at the track after dynoing 422- due to the poor health of the stock shortblock, JPR advised against it. I was waiting for JPR to build me a new engine, but after waiting 6-8 months I got impatient and decided to get the ARE shortblock from Rapid.
Some of the poor track performance may be attributable to torque management- my most recent tuning session indicated TM had not been disabled in the previous tune.
Most recent dyno numbers were: 370 baseline, 390 after tuning through an open cutout, pulled the air filter. In fairness to Mike, I had made some changes that may have affected the tune- so I'm not saying his tune left 20 HP on the table. I had changed the lid, MAF, catback, and put cats back on the car. I am sure these changes affected the A/F ratio somewhat.
Chris- SLP 85mm MAF (with screen). Jeff said he could tune with this MAF. Mike actually recommended the SLP MAF, but my car had a stock, descreened MAF on it when he tuned it.
Fireball- I have a set of Z06 injectors, just haven't installed them. None of the tuners- JPR, Rapid, or CAM, have been of the opinion the car is out of injector. Didn't Colonel run stock injectors in a 422? There seems to be a lot of different opinions about how much HP the stock injectors can support.
Chef- wow, those numbers are a lot lower than I would expect. There have been cases of cars with stock heads dynoing over 400 with the Thunder cam- to what do you attribute the difference in dyno numbers? If what you say is true, then JPR is misleading people with guaranteeing 420-430 RWHP with this package. The TR 224 cam is his recommended cam with his stage 2 heads and you are saying it usually makes 390's to low 400's on your dyno? With stage 2 ported heads?
Can you guys see how a customer can get confused getting so much conflicting information?!?!
My head hurts now.
Fireball- I have a set of Z06 injectors, just haven't installed them. None of the tuners- JPR, Rapid, or CAM, have been of the opinion the car is out of injector. Didn't Colonel run stock injectors in a 422? There seems to be a lot of different opinions about how much HP the stock injectors can support.
Chef- wow, those numbers are a lot lower than I would expect. There have been cases of cars with stock heads dynoing over 400 with the Thunder cam- to what do you attribute the difference in dyno numbers? If what you say is true, then JPR is misleading people with guaranteeing 420-430 RWHP with this package. The TR 224 cam is his recommended cam with his stage 2 heads and you are saying it usually makes 390's to low 400's on your dyno? With stage 2 ported heads?
Can you guys see how a customer can get confused getting so much conflicting information?!?!
My head hurts now. TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,341
Likes: 1
People forget dynos are tuning tools only. Good for before after comparisions on the same car in the same session. I have seen 20RWHP CORRECTED differences from humid days vs colder days with NO changes.
-Went from A to B to C.
-Making less and less power every time a new place works on it, but yet you are excited about their tuning ability? I made 375rwhp in 2000 with a locked automatic. No offense but I have known Mikey for five years and he's usually pretty solid. I don't think he's really had a chance to look into your combo and to see what makes sense.
-422rwhp on stock 99 injectors means maxed out injectors.
-If a car dynos 422rwhp and it's too sick to take down the track how is it that that is the baseline if the shortblock was shot? I'm not disagreeing with you that a variance from 422rwhp to 390rwhp is not severe, it is a big difference, but it would have been nice to take it down the track and see the car go 120mph trap speeds to support that 422rwhp number.
-I have only heard of one car every having stock collapsed lifters. I think that's a rare problem, I again ask what the lifte preload measured out to?
-Cats will cut down rwhp by 5-15rwhp depending on the brand.
-We just want to help but changing shops over and over usually just makes everything muddled.
-Making less and less power every time a new place works on it, but yet you are excited about their tuning ability? I made 375rwhp in 2000 with a locked automatic. No offense but I have known Mikey for five years and he's usually pretty solid. I don't think he's really had a chance to look into your combo and to see what makes sense.
-422rwhp on stock 99 injectors means maxed out injectors.
-If a car dynos 422rwhp and it's too sick to take down the track how is it that that is the baseline if the shortblock was shot? I'm not disagreeing with you that a variance from 422rwhp to 390rwhp is not severe, it is a big difference, but it would have been nice to take it down the track and see the car go 120mph trap speeds to support that 422rwhp number.
-I have only heard of one car every having stock collapsed lifters. I think that's a rare problem, I again ask what the lifte preload measured out to?
-Cats will cut down rwhp by 5-15rwhp depending on the brand.
-We just want to help but changing shops over and over usually just makes everything muddled.