Pro-Comp Head Studs sold on Ebay
05-14-2012, 06:24 AM
#83
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05-14-2012, 08:12 AM
#84
Luckily just one daughter 12 going on 20 here lol. And a five year old boy
05-14-2012, 09:43 PM
#85
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I havent used the Ebay studs but I think I will for my build.
Opinion time:
I HATE the argument that you get what you pay for. That would imply that when I paid top dollar, for a top of the line item, from a top of the line vendor, whos selling this top of the line manufactures, top of the line product..... That would then mean that I got what I paid for: The BEST and that I would then reap the benefits / intangibles that come with buying the best
I have pissed away thousands of dollars on buying the best and being disappointed. I have also pissed away money trying to be cheap. I have been very pleased with some top of the line high dollar items, and I have also been pleasantly surprised by some budget items.
The messed up part about a thread like this is that the "get what you pay for" birds flock in just hoping to see one case of a real failure. Then that usually winds up being a my friends buddy blah blah blah deal. The guys who have actual experience with the item and say they are pleased with it get drowned out and basically ignored
.
Some one should start a "Who didnt get what you paid for thread". You would have hundreds of inputs and they would be first hand not my buddies blah blah crap.
My opinion on the studs themselves: We are talking head studs not rod bolts. They need to clamp the heads to the block and maintain that through multiple heat cycles. One poster said he has been running them for three years. It sounds like they should atleast be considered a budget alternative to the arps.
jason
Opinion time:
I HATE the argument that you get what you pay for. That would imply that when I paid top dollar, for a top of the line item, from a top of the line vendor, whos selling this top of the line manufactures, top of the line product..... That would then mean that I got what I paid for: The BEST and that I would then reap the benefits / intangibles that come with buying the best
I have pissed away thousands of dollars on buying the best and being disappointed. I have also pissed away money trying to be cheap. I have been very pleased with some top of the line high dollar items, and I have also been pleasantly surprised by some budget items.
The messed up part about a thread like this is that the "get what you pay for" birds flock in just hoping to see one case of a real failure. Then that usually winds up being a my friends buddy blah blah blah deal. The guys who have actual experience with the item and say they are pleased with it get drowned out and basically ignored
.Some one should start a "Who didnt get what you paid for thread". You would have hundreds of inputs and they would be first hand not my buddies blah blah crap.
My opinion on the studs themselves: We are talking head studs not rod bolts. They need to clamp the heads to the block and maintain that through multiple heat cycles. One poster said he has been running them for three years. It sounds like they should atleast be considered a budget alternative to the arps.
jason
05-14-2012, 10:07 PM
#86
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The only way to check would be to get a arp bolt, and a brand X and check their Rockwell hardness. Then check the stretch % under torque. That would determine the strength, but it would be difficult to factor in the quality, Checking 1000s of each would be pricy. Just buy what you want, & try it. Remember, trial and error is what makes hotrodding what it is. And I have ARP head bolts, got them new for $110.00, otherwise I would of tried the brand X studs.
05-16-2012, 05:27 PM
#88
Well, I had a decent back and forth w/ Mike from kmjperformance, who also sells these studs (Pro Comps)
They have a 1yr warranty, so in my mind, if they don't go pop the first time, they won't pop at all.
That's what I tell myself anyways to try to justify being a cheap-***.
They have a 1yr warranty, so in my mind, if they don't go pop the first time, they won't pop at all.
That's what I tell myself anyways to try to justify being a cheap-***.
Last edited by dr_whigham; 05-16-2012 at 05:56 PM.
05-16-2012, 06:47 PM
#89
I think I've literally torqued a thousand ARP bolts, studs, and capscrews and not one failure. Not one. Clean and lube the threads, use a quality calibrated torque wrench and the correct torque value, and with a little attention to detail you should not have a problem. When someone says their ARP fastener failed, my first thought is to wonder what the installer did wrong.
With fasteners as cheap as this Pro Comp kit, they are simply not the same quality as ARP. Does that mean they will fail? Not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of failure? Absolutely.
If I remember correctly, one reason ARP products are more expensive is that they roll all of their threads versus cutting them like most fasteners you find in a hardware store. This concentrates the grain of the steel into the root diameter of the threads to increase density and strength at a critical failure point. That machinery and their maintenance are not cheap. Another is that they have metallurgists on staff at ARP which developed some of their own alloys, like the 8740 and ARP 2000 alloys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they developed the L19 alloy as well. Call Pro Comp and ask to speak to their metallurgist, see what alloy they use in their stud kits...
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
With fasteners as cheap as this Pro Comp kit, they are simply not the same quality as ARP. Does that mean they will fail? Not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of failure? Absolutely.
If I remember correctly, one reason ARP products are more expensive is that they roll all of their threads versus cutting them like most fasteners you find in a hardware store. This concentrates the grain of the steel into the root diameter of the threads to increase density and strength at a critical failure point. That machinery and their maintenance are not cheap. Another is that they have metallurgists on staff at ARP which developed some of their own alloys, like the 8740 and ARP 2000 alloys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they developed the L19 alloy as well. Call Pro Comp and ask to speak to their metallurgist, see what alloy they use in their stud kits...
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
05-22-2012, 08:33 AM
#90
AMEN Brother!!!!! My one 3 year old baby girl has made a "gun enthusiast" out of me.
As for the subject at hand, I am currently on my first LS build. I simply read this for opinion and info. Thanks for all parties involved. ARP has worked thus far, I'll stick with them.
Last edited by cl08; 05-22-2012 at 08:45 AM.
05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
#91
I think I've literally torqued a thousand ARP bolts, studs, and capscrews and not one failure. Not one. Clean and lube the threads, use a quality calibrated torque wrench and the correct torque value, and with a little attention to detail you should not have a problem. When someone says their ARP fastener failed, my first thought is to wonder what the installer did wrong.
With fasteners as cheap as this Pro Comp kit, they are simply not the same quality as ARP. Does that mean they will fail? Not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of failure? Absolutely.
If I remember correctly, one reason ARP products are more expensive is that they roll all of their threads versus cutting them like most fasteners you find in a hardware store. This concentrates the grain of the steel into the root diameter of the threads to increase density and strength at a critical failure point. That machinery and their maintenance are not cheap. Another is that they have metallurgists on staff at ARP which developed some of their own alloys, like the 8740 and ARP 2000 alloys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they developed the L19 alloy as well. Call Pro Comp and ask to speak to their metallurgist, see what alloy they use in their stud kits...
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
With fasteners as cheap as this Pro Comp kit, they are simply not the same quality as ARP. Does that mean they will fail? Not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of failure? Absolutely.
If I remember correctly, one reason ARP products are more expensive is that they roll all of their threads versus cutting them like most fasteners you find in a hardware store. This concentrates the grain of the steel into the root diameter of the threads to increase density and strength at a critical failure point. That machinery and their maintenance are not cheap. Another is that they have metallurgists on staff at ARP which developed some of their own alloys, like the 8740 and ARP 2000 alloys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they developed the L19 alloy as well. Call Pro Comp and ask to speak to their metallurgist, see what alloy they use in their stud kits...
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
Also, cutting threads on fasteners is very time consuming and expensive. Go to your local hardware store, I bet you have a hard time finding a fastener that has the threads cut. Most companies roll threads too for mass production.
I think there are 3 reasons why the fasteners cost alot of money.
1. Proven known brand. Demand increases cost
2. Quality control. Based on the episode, they test and QC every batch of fasteners.
3. Employment wages. Based on the episode, most of their employees have been with the company for a long time. That translate, they get paid well with excellent benefit.
The Pro-comp studs most likely do not get that much scrutiny for quality, but that doesnt make them a point of failure either.
Look at the bolts currently holding your car together, your transmission, your LS3, or the rearend. These are not ARP bolts and seem to last and take the abuse.
I wouldnt be shocked to find out the procomp studs or fasteners in general are ARPs blems (Ok to use, but not to their QC level)
05-23-2012, 06:57 AM
#93
Not that everything you see on TV is true, but...On powerblock TV they took a tour of ARP's facility. They do not cast their own metal. All of thier fasteners start out as big rolls of chromoly steel which I bet is imported.
Also, cutting threads on fasteners is very time consuming and expensive. Go to your local hardware store, I bet you have a hard time finding a fastener that has the threads cut. Most companies roll threads too for mass production.
I think there are 3 reasons why the fasteners cost alot of money.
1. Proven known brand. Demand increases cost
2. Quality control. Based on the episode, they test and QC every batch of fasteners.
3. Employment wages. Based on the episode, most of their employees have been with the company for a long time. That translate, they get paid well with excellent benefit.
The Pro-comp studs most likely do not get that much scrutiny for quality, but that doesnt make them a point of failure either.
Look at the bolts currently holding your car together, your transmission, your LS3, or the rearend. These are not ARP bolts and seem to last and take the abuse.
I wouldnt be shocked to find out the procomp studs or fasteners in general are ARPs blems (Ok to use, but not to their QC level)
Also, cutting threads on fasteners is very time consuming and expensive. Go to your local hardware store, I bet you have a hard time finding a fastener that has the threads cut. Most companies roll threads too for mass production.
I think there are 3 reasons why the fasteners cost alot of money.
1. Proven known brand. Demand increases cost
2. Quality control. Based on the episode, they test and QC every batch of fasteners.
3. Employment wages. Based on the episode, most of their employees have been with the company for a long time. That translate, they get paid well with excellent benefit.
The Pro-comp studs most likely do not get that much scrutiny for quality, but that doesnt make them a point of failure either.
Look at the bolts currently holding your car together, your transmission, your LS3, or the rearend. These are not ARP bolts and seem to last and take the abuse.
I wouldnt be shocked to find out the procomp studs or fasteners in general are ARPs blems (Ok to use, but not to their QC level)
I wouldn't expect ARP to actually have a foundry and produce their own raw materials, but according to ARP, the composition of those materials are of their own design per the metallurgists on staff.
My "LS3" uses ARP fasteners.
05-23-2012, 08:47 AM
#95
I stand corrected, it's not the fact ARP rolls threads that makes it expensive, it's the fact that they roll threads into material with 190-220ksi tensile strengths. Like you said, most hardware store bolt suppliers roll their threads, but they're only set up for grade 8/10.9 materials which are 150ksi max. Rolling threads into 190-220ksi tensile steel is what requires the big money machinery.
I wouldn't expect ARP to actually have a foundry and produce their own raw materials, but according to ARP, the composition of those materials are of their own design per the metallurgists on staff.
My "LS3" uses ARP fasteners.
I wouldn't expect ARP to actually have a foundry and produce their own raw materials, but according to ARP, the composition of those materials are of their own design per the metallurgists on staff.
My "LS3" uses ARP fasteners.
Your LS3 cam from GM with ARP bolts??
05-23-2012, 02:04 PM
#98
Thats my point,
There are 440hp, 500hp, 650hp, 800hp cars out there (From the factory) that DO NOT use ARP bolts in their applications. That shows that "others" can and do make fasteners that get the job done. I wouldnt discount a NON ARP fastener unless there is justification for it. I can't really think of one reason why I would buy TTY bolts when I can have studs for the same price. FWIW, I have never seen or broke a grade 8 or 10.9 factory fastener (Natural causes)
From the evidence presented here, these studs will suit the average man's project. Now if you are doing like a 2,000hp drag car, than you might want to carefully pick all your parts.
There are 440hp, 500hp, 650hp, 800hp cars out there (From the factory) that DO NOT use ARP bolts in their applications. That shows that "others" can and do make fasteners that get the job done. I wouldnt discount a NON ARP fastener unless there is justification for it. I can't really think of one reason why I would buy TTY bolts when I can have studs for the same price. FWIW, I have never seen or broke a grade 8 or 10.9 factory fastener (Natural causes)
From the evidence presented here, these studs will suit the average man's project. Now if you are doing like a 2,000hp drag car, than you might want to carefully pick all your parts.
Last edited by badazz81z28; 05-23-2012 at 02:11 PM.
05-23-2012, 08:39 PM
#99
Thats my point,
There are 440hp, 500hp, 650hp, 800hp cars out there (From the factory) that DO NOT use ARP bolts in their applications. That shows that "others" can and do make fasteners that get the job done. I wouldnt discount a NON ARP fastener unless there is justification for it. I can't really think of one reason why I would buy TTY bolts when I can have studs for the same price. FWIW, I have never seen or broke a grade 8 or 10.9 factory fastener (Natural causes)
From the evidence presented here, these studs will suit the average man's project. Now if you are doing like a 2,000hp drag car, than you might want to carefully pick all your parts.
There are 440hp, 500hp, 650hp, 800hp cars out there (From the factory) that DO NOT use ARP bolts in their applications. That shows that "others" can and do make fasteners that get the job done. I wouldnt discount a NON ARP fastener unless there is justification for it. I can't really think of one reason why I would buy TTY bolts when I can have studs for the same price. FWIW, I have never seen or broke a grade 8 or 10.9 factory fastener (Natural causes)
From the evidence presented here, these studs will suit the average man's project. Now if you are doing like a 2,000hp drag car, than you might want to carefully pick all your parts.
With fasteners as cheap as this Pro Comp kit, they are simply not the same quality as ARP. Does that mean they will fail? Not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of failure? Absolutely.
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
With that said, why would someone as cheap...or "budget minded"...be looking at Pro Comp studs anyways? If studs are out of your budget, then the combination of parts that would require studs are out of your budget as well. $120 ARP headbolts would be a much more intelligent decision. I mean the 750bhp LSX 454R uses GM TTY headbolts...
Pro Comp, however, is notorious for having issues with material composition as well as machining QC in some of their other products, such as cylinder heads. Gambling the health of the engine to save about $50 is a foolish choice.