Tony Nichols

iTrader: (2)

Hi, my names Tony, and im kinda stuck on my build. I have a 96 bmw 318ti and a 98 ls1/6 that has been rebuilt. The issue is, it was rebuilt once, spun two bearings in the first maybe 4 hours of being run, then was replaced with an lm7.

I finally pulled the ls1 back out and tore it down to the bare bones and found a lot of issues including:

Stock ls1 cam - Decent sized knick in rear intake and exhaust lobes
Stock lifters - They were so weak and collapsed, you could push them with your pinky
Valves - Three were bent
Valve springs - Only measured at 60lbs, give or take 10-20%
Valve seats were banged up from valve float
Oil pump - stock from 1998
Crank - trashed 4+6 journals
Rods- trashed 4+6
It had mismatched bearings for mains and rods and most were 40 over.

So i took it to a local machine shop, my friends dad, whos been in business for a couple decades. While in his possession, i purchased -

20022004 LS6 Cam. I: 204 E: 218. I: .550 E: .550. 117.5. - brand new
12499224 Ls6 valve springs - brand new
LS7 lifters - new
New Crank - reman
New Rods - came with above crank
New Rings
New head gaskets
New head stud kit
New front and rear gaskets
New Oil pan gasket
New Mellings Oil pump
3 Angle valve job
New Valves
New HD timing chain
New Harmonic balancer pulley
New arp and non-arp hardware

The issue now is, i brought it to him in july, and just saturday, picked up a scantly assembled shortblock that costed my lm7 longblock plus another 200$. He installed the cam, rotating assembly, and the chain. Each week he had an excuse why he wasnt done, then it was "i need to machine a tool to install this or measure that correctly", then "I need to machine this to that to set time on it". At the end of the day, based on his measurements, the ls6 cam is degreed 1 degree in advance and all he had to do was install it one tooth past the "dot to dot". Is this correct? Id really really hate to waste my time and money finishing the assembly, starting it, and having it blow apart because of whatever method he came up with to move the chain one tooth over.

Any help or advise is appreciated. I can also take pictures if needed.

Tony


My build thread
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...hatchback.html

KCS

iTrader: (20)

One tooth from dot to dot is a hell of a lot more than one degree. I know there's always two sides to a story, but based off what you've said, I'd be taking that motor elsewhere.

Tony Nichols

iTrader: (2)

I personally dont think that its correctly timed, hence asking here. I dont know of any ls specialists here in town but i didnt think that itd be a big issue, considering its just an ls6 cam being installed.

2000PewterT/A

It doesn't matter if its a LS6 cam or a crazy high lift cam going in, if the timing is wrong the timing is wrong and can have detrimental effects on engine performance. 1 tooth is much more than 1 degree. I would be taking business elsewhere if I was you.

wildcamaro

iTrader: (15)

One tooth forward on cam gear would be about 8 degrees and if he did it on the crank gear you will have 16 degrees of timing=Wowzer

If your timing cover and balancer are back on the pull them off get cylinder #1 at tdc on power stroke and install dot to dot...good luck bro

chevybayboy

iTrader: (6)

^^^^ what they said

Tony Nichols

iTrader: (2)

I figured dot to dot is the correct method. This is how it's currently sitting in the garage, but sealed in plastic.

The yellow is dot and dot, blue is where he "measured" and marked as good.

wildcamaro

iTrader: (15)

Notta-a-nice..redo

Grimes

iTrader: (3)

Are you serious? You adjust timing with special adjustable timing sets
, not skipping teeth.... Wow

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

I'd be scared on what else he did to that engine. You CANNOT degree a cam without an adjustable timing set. for most installs unless you want every ounce of hp out the motor there is no need to degree. would it be nice? ya! but gm doesnt degree their cams and most members dont either. pull that chain off and time it correctly. then check the whole motor over GOOD!

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

I would strongly question your choice to go with LS6 springs on an LS6 cam when you are using solid valves. OEM valvetrain is NOT known for high rpm control and I don't know all my variations well but LS6 heads mostly had hollow valves and stock LS1 valves are solid meaning heavier and harder to control.

Given everything else I would not expect his 3 angle valvejob to be even OEM quality much less something good.

I would not do head studs unless boreing the block, studs create different stresses on the block than bolts and all machining should be done with whatever style fastener you are going to actually use.

Bent valves and screwed up lifters make me wonder if the pushrods were too long.

A LOT of old school guys can't do anything to newer engines but screw them up. It shouldn't be that hard but somehow they make it hard and just turn good parts into junk. Even the LT1s which are VERY similar to gen 1 motors many shops completely ruin. A lot of guys stopped learning in the 70s and have stayed in business this long somehow.

I would run a junkyard engine before what you have. You haven't conclusively proven it is all junk but the circumstantial evidence is strong.

gMAG

iTrader: (1)

Someone doesn't know what he is doing. By the timing alone, is an accident waiting to happen. I don't know what you've spent/traded, but get your motor back.
In a similar manner, I committed to having my car body restored. The guy promised me the world, and didn't deliver. I trusted, and he f'd me.
Next time, at the first hint of wrongdoing, I will go elsewhere.

badazz81z28

iTrader: (6)

If you can mess up the simpliest thing like installing a timing chain...what else did you do wrong?

2000PewterT/A

I would be tearing it back apart to check lol

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

This thread needs to go from EPIC FAIL to DIY in a real hurry or else
the next thread will be......"It won't start.....cranks but valves hitting"

mchicia1

iTrader: (5)

Hahahahaha he advanced the timing by SKIPPING A TOOTH. And he builds motors for a LIVING.

LMFAO.


I agree with the others, you need to tear that motor down and redo it or you will just have to pull it right out after you start it. July to December for a basic rebuild? Installing a cam with the motor out takes about 10 minutes. Also, no one degrees a stock LS6 cam. Just dot to dot and go.

Tony Nichols

iTrader: (2)

He stopped by last night to tear it down and show me why he moved it one tooth over. Installing the cam "dot to dot" then measures at 126degrees instead of the 110 that its supposed to be at when installed and degreed to the crank. Moving the cam gear one tooth over set the cam to roughly 109/110 degrees with the crank, which is what the cam is labeled and measured at.

Besides physical proof showing tdc and the cams degree during revolution, what makes it wrong besides a dot to dot being incorrect? Ive spoken with texas speed and hes speaking with them today as well to see what the issue could be.

mchicia1

iTrader: (5)

His measuring is wrong then. There is no way GM would ever machine a crank gear, a cam sprocket, and a cam that results in the timing being off a tooth.

gMAG

iTrader: (1)

Is it possible, that because the "old school" way would be to line up dot/dot, that he is expecting #1 cyl to be at TDC?
If so, this would be incorrect.
Just throwing this out there, as a comparison.
Maybe he's aware of this already?

For LS1...
From Tech member.."Joseph"
Re: "when torqueing the rockers"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glenn,

I'm glad you found my info helpful, not many people know the valve events for all 8 cylinders and when they happen. You would naturally assume with the dots aligned it would be the firing position of cylinder #1, when its actually the start of the intake stroke as far as the piston/intake valve is concerned. With the dots aligned cylinder #6 is the one to set preload/lash/ or for installing rockers.

Each 90* (720* / 8cyl = 90*) on the crankshaft gear is another cylinder firing, while each 45* (360* / 8cyl = 45*) on the camshaft gear is another cylinder firing. Having the timing cover off helps to watch the sequence.

Here's a copy/paste of a manuscript I'm working on that may help also:
LSX Firing Order 1, 8, 7, 2, 6, 5, 4, 3

TDC Cyl. #1) Camshaft dot at 12:00 / Crankshaft dot at 12:00
TDC Cyl. #8) Camshaft dot at 1:30 / Crankshaft dot at 3:00
TDC Cyl. #7) Camshaft dot at 3:00 / Crankshaft dot at 6:00
TDC Cyl. #2) Camshaft dot at 4:30 / Crankshaft dot at 9:00
TDC Cyl. #6) Camshaft dot at 6:00 / Crankshaft dot at 12:00
TDC Cyl. #5) Camshaft dot at 7:30 / Crankshaft dot at 3:00
TDC Cyl. #4) Camshaft dot at 9:00 / Crankshaft dot at 6:00
TDC Cyl. #3) Camshaft dot at 10:30 / Crankshaft dot at 9:00

If you have that and the timing cover off you don't even half to measure how far you turned the engine over, just line up the dots to the correct orientation and install.

Thanks,
Joseph

Ferocity02

iTrader: (60)

If it was a non-GM cam or timing set I could believe that it's that far off, but not with OEM parts.