What is the most cost effective/smartest way to make 700+rwhp w/o FI or NOS?
06-22-2013, 02:11 AM
#61
Aha! Beginning to understand now. So basically i cant hit two birds with one stone like im planning: make a powerful engine N/A and then just add boost to make it even more powerful.
From what i understand...an engine configured to make 700rwhp (or at least 600) n/a HAS TO be reconfigured/rebuilt if you want to boost it...correct??
So...what is the most rwhp i can make and be able to boost it later without having to reconfigure it??...in a way that it could be already set up and ready for boost.
From what i understand...an engine configured to make 700rwhp (or at least 600) n/a HAS TO be reconfigured/rebuilt if you want to boost it...correct??
So...what is the most rwhp i can make and be able to boost it later without having to reconfigure it??...in a way that it could be already set up and ready for boost.
06-22-2013, 02:39 AM
#62
TECH Senior Member
What you are asking for is possible but expensive. Why? To make power NA at the level you want you will have high compression. High compression require serious design in boost applications as well as expensive fuels. Boost on high compression is hard on parts, the real issue, how deep are your pockets.
06-22-2013, 07:37 AM
#63
im very serious how many newer F-bodies do you see with a big block in them? Not many so if you did that it would be a dime in a dozen. Yea i fully understand you would have to spend some money on the engine bay to make it fit but most of that you can do yourself to cut down the cost of it. Hell my dads old f-body with the 454 camper motor was installed and build for around $7500 tops it costed 4k for installation, the motor was like $600 (they go for 500-700 depending on where you get it in GA) his headers was like 500 i believe, motor mounts relocation kit was 100 tops, starter was 300 tops, fuel pump was 400, heads was 100 intake 200, carb 400, exhaust was 500 and he got a thumper cam from comp cams for like 400 tops and a cowl hood for like 200 tops.(yea that should be all of it) Its a mild build making 400hp and over 500lbs ft trq running through a TH350, stock rear end and he just spins its one of his cruiser's his other cruiser is a 75 Trans Am with a Buick 455 and yes we are having fuel issues with that too. both cars pull very hard until it starves for fuel tho lol Hes got way more money dumped into the TA tho
06-22-2013, 07:58 AM
#64
What you are asking for is possible but expensive. Why? To make power NA at the level you want you will have high compression. High compression require serious design in boost applications as well as expensive fuels. Boost on high compression is hard on parts, the real issue, how deep are your pockets.
06-22-2013, 04:18 PM
#69
06-22-2013, 05:11 PM
#71
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Going to need around 800-850 fwhp. Don't use % loss. Using that method says the more power you make the more you lose to an identical drivetrain. Doesn't make sense.
I had two different engines built and ran them in the same car with the same accessories and drivetrain except one was a Muncie and one was a TKO trans. Saw about 90 rwhp loss vs flywheel dyno on both engines. Manufacturer SAE numbers now include everything except the actual drivetrain, crate engine numbers typically do not.
Flywheel dyno was dyno headers, no accessories, and 30 weight oil.
Chassis dyno was headers, full exhaust, 110A alt, high volume water pump, power steering pump, clutch fan, 10W-40 oil, manual trans, and Moser 12 bolt with 33 spline axles and Detroit Truetrac mechanical diff.
I had two different engines built and ran them in the same car with the same accessories and drivetrain except one was a Muncie and one was a TKO trans. Saw about 90 rwhp loss vs flywheel dyno on both engines. Manufacturer SAE numbers now include everything except the actual drivetrain, crate engine numbers typically do not.
Flywheel dyno was dyno headers, no accessories, and 30 weight oil.
Chassis dyno was headers, full exhaust, 110A alt, high volume water pump, power steering pump, clutch fan, 10W-40 oil, manual trans, and Moser 12 bolt with 33 spline axles and Detroit Truetrac mechanical diff.
06-22-2013, 10:52 PM
#72
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We fixed the issue on the fuel problem in his 75 TA. It was with the fuel line near the fuel tank. Fun fact that we found out the old COPO Camaro's came with the same size line that's in the factory built BBC or BBP Big Block Pontiac) and BBB (Big Block Buick) (or what ever you wanna call them)back in the day. I believe the fuel line was a 3/8's if I am not mistaking. There was a crack in the fuel line near the fuel tank so we fix that, The 75 TA 455 Buick motor still has some issues while driving it but its a lot better doesn't do what it has been doing. We now think its because of the kick down cable since we have a TH350 for a transmission when its supposed to have a TH400 with an electric kick down. After the TA is fixed completely we are going to get the 69 Camaro Fixed completely then sell them at the Rod Run later this year.
06-22-2013, 10:56 PM
#73
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The 75 TA has had a 8k paint job and it has the Bird on the hood. The Camaro will more than likely get the same treatment with the paint job and it has a 3in cowl hood on it because of the 454 BBC that's in it. and the 454 has been built. Nothing major just a lumpy cam, Torker 2 intake, I believe both car's have a 750-850cc carb on them (not too sure as I know nothing about carburetors). My dad just built them to cruise in but im sure some one will pick them up and build them.
06-22-2013, 11:58 PM
#74
Thought I would burst the OP's bubble...no one else seems to be having any luck
Seriously though....lets get right to it.
You need a big bore block....big cubes 434 - 454 (bigger the better) or better yet an RHS tall deck and closer to 500 CID and if we are talking about pump gas you may as well forget it although a BIG engine with heavily ported LS7 heads and a single plane MAST intake with a big TB might come close on pump ($$$$$).
Look....were talking about easily a $25,000 dollar engine and its going to be very single focused.
You could build the power you want alot more "cost effectively" with a much more simple forced induction build.
I can count how many guys on this board made 700-725 HP at the crank on one hand (actually, not even one hand) and your inquiring about trying to produce 800 or so cause that's what you will need to get there.....highly unlikely to happen unless you have cubic dollars to throw at this project and a really good game plan.
Good luck whatever you decide to do but "cost effective" and 800 HP normally aspirated in an LS smallblock should never be in the same sentence because that type of figure assumes cost isn't even in the equation.
A good BBC can do it on pump gas for half that price though.....the beauty of cubes and huge cylinder heads....wont package quite as well in your GTO though.....LOL
I'm outta here.....catch you guys later. I will keep an eye on this thread for the entertainment value. In the almost decade I have been on here, I haven't seen a single one that reads similar to this ever pan out to anything (no offense OP....just stating a fact.....would love to see you swing for the fences and build something outrageous).
-Tony
06-23-2013, 01:12 PM
#75
SIGH....
Thought I would burst the OP's bubble...no one else seems to be having any luck
Seriously though....lets get right to it.
You need a big bore block....big cubes 434 - 454 (bigger the better) or better yet an RHS tall deck and closer to 500 CID and if we are talking about pump gas you may as well forget it although a BIG engine with heavily ported LS7 heads and a single plane MAST intake with a big TB might come close on pump ($$$$$).
Look....were talking about easily a $25,000 dollar engine and its going to be very single focused.
You could build the power you want alot more "cost effectively" with a much more simple forced induction build.
I can count how many guys on this board made 700-725 HP at the crank on one hand (actually, not even one hand) and your inquiring about trying to produce 800 or so cause that's what you will need to get there.....highly unlikely to happen unless you have cubic dollars to throw at this project and a really good game plan.
Good luck whatever you decide to do but "cost effective" and 800 HP normally aspirated in an LS smallblock should never be in the same sentence because that type of figure assumes cost isn't even in the equation.
A good BBC can do it on pump gas for half that price though.....the beauty of cubes and huge cylinder heads....wont package quite as well in your GTO though.....LOL
I'm outta here.....catch you guys later. I will keep an eye on this thread for the entertainment value. In the almost decade I have been on here, I haven't seen a single one that reads similar to this ever pan out to anything (no offense OP....just stating a fact.....would love to see you swing for the fences and build something outrageous).
-Tony
Thought I would burst the OP's bubble...no one else seems to be having any luck
Seriously though....lets get right to it.
You need a big bore block....big cubes 434 - 454 (bigger the better) or better yet an RHS tall deck and closer to 500 CID and if we are talking about pump gas you may as well forget it although a BIG engine with heavily ported LS7 heads and a single plane MAST intake with a big TB might come close on pump ($$$$$).
Look....were talking about easily a $25,000 dollar engine and its going to be very single focused.
You could build the power you want alot more "cost effectively" with a much more simple forced induction build.
I can count how many guys on this board made 700-725 HP at the crank on one hand (actually, not even one hand) and your inquiring about trying to produce 800 or so cause that's what you will need to get there.....highly unlikely to happen unless you have cubic dollars to throw at this project and a really good game plan.
Good luck whatever you decide to do but "cost effective" and 800 HP normally aspirated in an LS smallblock should never be in the same sentence because that type of figure assumes cost isn't even in the equation.
A good BBC can do it on pump gas for half that price though.....the beauty of cubes and huge cylinder heads....wont package quite as well in your GTO though.....LOL
I'm outta here.....catch you guys later. I will keep an eye on this thread for the entertainment value. In the almost decade I have been on here, I haven't seen a single one that reads similar to this ever pan out to anything (no offense OP....just stating a fact.....would love to see you swing for the fences and build something outrageous).
-Tony
I think ppl are just reading the first post on this thread and not bothering to read the rest of the posts...thus, commenting on what i "initially" asked.
I've posted so many times that i am no longer interested in making 700rwhp....and i will say it again....
I am no longer interested in making 700rwhp
I was asking...initially...how i could make 700rwhp n/a to see if it was possible. Now i have learned (thanks to all of you) that it is either...
a) impossible
b) ridiculously expensive
c) even if i did manage to make 700rwhp n/a, i will not be able to boost it later without making some major changes.
Thus, i gave up on the idea of making 700rwhp
Now the thread has developed and i am asking a different question...which is...
What is the most rwhp i can make n/a with a production pre-2004 block and be able to boost and spray later without making any changes? (at least major ones that will cost a lot of $$)
PREDATOR-Z said 420-450rwhp...with 6.0 iron, 4.00 crank, 15cc dish pistons (with lateral boost reliefs), 6.125 rods.
That with cnc heads, 71cc.
...Fair enough, but i see this is without cam. (or is it?). And what is the bore?? std??
I am now contemplating an LQ9 (6.0L) 408 stroker.
Or a sleeved LQ9 427...4.125 bore and 4.000 stroke. OR 4.070 bore and 4.100 stroke. OR 4.060 bore and 4.125 stroke. Not sure which one would be better.
I've heard the LQ9 can be bored to .030 safely. More than that and it needs to be sonic tested and is most probably not going to handle being boosted and sprayed. What is your opinion on this?
So basically the above is what i'm now asking and not about how to make 700rwhp, as you guys have made it clear to me that it is not realistic.
Last edited by Freefallin; 06-23-2013 at 02:04 PM.
