Shimmed lifters...where ??
01-06-2014, 06:12 PM
#3
01-06-2014, 08:34 PM
#6
ok.....allow me to play devils advocate here.
1)~Tell me what makes a "marketed" short travel lifter better than a shimmed LS7 , how do they differ ?? Try and be as technical as possible, please no opinions. Lets say.....they both offer a .020" total travel.
2)~Tell me, do the "marketed" short travel bodies restrict or need less oil than a factory LS7 ?? How does this effect lubrication in the upper valve train ??
3)~What documented failures (mechanical failures) of LS7 lifters are out there (not user errors, turned in cup, improper preload or a ridiculous amount of spring pressure) ??
I turn my stone, bone stock lifters to 7500...everytime down the track or on the dyno.....but I'm only 405lbs over the nose....
The only "better" I can see with a aftermarket lifter is the bearing/bushing design....and wheel diameter.
Thanks........
1)~Tell me what makes a "marketed" short travel lifter better than a shimmed LS7 , how do they differ ?? Try and be as technical as possible, please no opinions. Lets say.....they both offer a .020" total travel.
2)~Tell me, do the "marketed" short travel bodies restrict or need less oil than a factory LS7 ?? How does this effect lubrication in the upper valve train ??
3)~What documented failures (mechanical failures) of LS7 lifters are out there (not user errors, turned in cup, improper preload or a ridiculous amount of spring pressure) ??
I turn my stone, bone stock lifters to 7500...everytime down the track or on the dyno.....but I'm only 405lbs over the nose....
The only "better" I can see with a aftermarket lifter is the bearing/bushing design....and wheel diameter.
Thanks........
01-06-2014, 09:05 PM
#7
if its so simple to shim lifters accurately, then make your own shims and put them in...
when you are talking about .020...its a pretty small window of error...it better be right
is the oiling passage still clear? does it bleed down any different?
usually the premade short travel lifters have a slower bleed down because you want that oil in there....if the oil bleeds down too fast you have a dead lifter and will get some damage eventually from it...ls7 lifter that is shimmed is still going to bleed down like a stock lifter...
I know several manufacturers make LSx short travel lifters, and some make a restricted and non restricted lifter...I'm sure theres advantages to each style depending on what you want to do with it...but I dont know that answer.
some are user error, some seem to be "random" failures which are all a mechanical failure of some sort...the "random"(mechanical) failures seem to be more than what people were seeing on the old ls1 lifter
I would bet it is due to the change in design because it was designed for a lighter valvetrain than what the original LS1 had..
I am assuming you have an engine that has LS7 lifters in it placed there from the factory...
or you bought (specifically) LS7 lifters for your setup
if your valvetrain is setup correctly, the standard ls7 lifter does fine...
lots of guys spin it to 7500 with no issues
if you buy an aftermarket lifter that claims to be a direct stock replacement(not an upgrade)...you likely will get a pretty much the same as stock lifter...maybe a better wheel...LOL
if you buy one that is supposed to be an upgrade, you will see improvements...whether its the bearings/bushings/spring plunger/oiling hole placement/size...even the shape of the pushrod cup can be changed or tweaked...there are lots of ways the lifters can be improved...aftermarket versions wouldnt exist if there werent improvements to be made
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01-06-2014, 10:16 PM
#9
not that you cant get shimmed ones that are right...but they are less consistent than a premade short travel that is changed by bore design
If the plunger is shimmer/pinned, as to not allow more travel. How is that "less consistent" ?? We are talking professional shops, no shade trees 'round here.
if its so simple to shim lifters accurately, then make your own shims and put them in...
I have a career in which I'm competent, I'm looking for the same with a vendor. And for the record, I never said or insinuated "simple".
when you are talking about .020...its a pretty small window of error...it better be right
What are the total travel measurements you have seen associated with "short travel" lifters ??
is the oiling passage still clear? does it bleed down any different?
usually the premade short travel lifters have a slower bleed down because you want that oil in there....if the oil bleeds down too fast you have a dead lifter and will get some damage eventually from it...ls7 lifter that is shimmed is still going to bleed down like a stock lifter...
So, devils advocate again....is the "bleed down" hole the same hole than feeds the oil into the plunger reservoir ?? So if your limiting the bleed down, are you limiting the oil feed ?? Which eventually travels through the pushrod to the "upper" valve train ?? Or lack there of.....
this I could not answer for you...I just dont know the answer to this one
I know several manufacturers make LSx short travel lifters, and some make a restricted and non restricted lifter...I'm sure theres advantages to each style depending on what you want to do with it...but I dont know that answer.
Street motor.....like 90% on this board....
Just do a google search for Ls7 Lifter failure... plenty of results...
some are user error, some seem to be "random" failures which are all a mechanical failure of some sort...the "random"(mechanical) failures seem to be more than what people were seeing on the old ls1 lifter
I would bet it is due to the change in design because it was designed for a lighter valvetrain than what the original LS1 had..
I will "search" later........mechanical failure is inherent of the name. But I would assume that the majority fail because of operator error. Wonder what % fail in stock motors ?? Because raising the rpm 13% seems....in the big picture....insignificant, IMO.
I dont know your setup...or
I am assuming you have an engine that has LS7 lifters in it placed there from the factory...
or you bought (specifically) LS7 lifters for your setup
if your valvetrain is setup correctly, the standard ls7 lifter does fine...
lots of guys spin it to 7500 with no issues
Bone stock 2004 30K mile LS6 including stock lifters.....firm believer in, "pay attention to the ounces and the pounds take care of themselves". But yes, attention has been paid to light components over the valve (including valves), correct geometry and ridged components before the arm.
if you buy an aftermarket lifter that claims to be a direct stock replacement(not an upgrade)...you likely will get a pretty much the same as stock lifter...maybe a better wheel...LOL
if you buy one that is supposed to be an upgrade, you will see improvements...whether its the bearings/bushings/spring plunger/oiling hole placement/size...even the shape of the pushrod cup can be changed or tweaked...there are lots of ways the lifters can be improved...aftermarket versions wouldnt exist if there werent improvements to be made
I try to stay vigilant towards marketing. If I'm getting something better, I will pay for it but.......sheepeople I am not. There is no "black magic" just people protecting/hiding the truth to make a buck.
If the plunger is shimmer/pinned, as to not allow more travel. How is that "less consistent" ?? We are talking professional shops, no shade trees 'round here.
if its so simple to shim lifters accurately, then make your own shims and put them in...
I have a career in which I'm competent, I'm looking for the same with a vendor. And for the record, I never said or insinuated "simple".
when you are talking about .020...its a pretty small window of error...it better be right
What are the total travel measurements you have seen associated with "short travel" lifters ??
is the oiling passage still clear? does it bleed down any different?
usually the premade short travel lifters have a slower bleed down because you want that oil in there....if the oil bleeds down too fast you have a dead lifter and will get some damage eventually from it...ls7 lifter that is shimmed is still going to bleed down like a stock lifter...
So, devils advocate again....is the "bleed down" hole the same hole than feeds the oil into the plunger reservoir ?? So if your limiting the bleed down, are you limiting the oil feed ?? Which eventually travels through the pushrod to the "upper" valve train ?? Or lack there of.....
this I could not answer for you...I just dont know the answer to this one
I know several manufacturers make LSx short travel lifters, and some make a restricted and non restricted lifter...I'm sure theres advantages to each style depending on what you want to do with it...but I dont know that answer.
Street motor.....like 90% on this board....
Just do a google search for Ls7 Lifter failure... plenty of results...
some are user error, some seem to be "random" failures which are all a mechanical failure of some sort...the "random"(mechanical) failures seem to be more than what people were seeing on the old ls1 lifter
I would bet it is due to the change in design because it was designed for a lighter valvetrain than what the original LS1 had..
I will "search" later........mechanical failure is inherent of the name. But I would assume that the majority fail because of operator error. Wonder what % fail in stock motors ?? Because raising the rpm 13% seems....in the big picture....insignificant, IMO.
I dont know your setup...or
I am assuming you have an engine that has LS7 lifters in it placed there from the factory...
or you bought (specifically) LS7 lifters for your setup
if your valvetrain is setup correctly, the standard ls7 lifter does fine...
lots of guys spin it to 7500 with no issues
Bone stock 2004 30K mile LS6 including stock lifters.....firm believer in, "pay attention to the ounces and the pounds take care of themselves". But yes, attention has been paid to light components over the valve (including valves), correct geometry and ridged components before the arm.
if you buy an aftermarket lifter that claims to be a direct stock replacement(not an upgrade)...you likely will get a pretty much the same as stock lifter...maybe a better wheel...LOL
if you buy one that is supposed to be an upgrade, you will see improvements...whether its the bearings/bushings/spring plunger/oiling hole placement/size...even the shape of the pushrod cup can be changed or tweaked...there are lots of ways the lifters can be improved...aftermarket versions wouldnt exist if there werent improvements to be made
I try to stay vigilant towards marketing. If I'm getting something better, I will pay for it but.......sheepeople I am not. There is no "black magic" just people protecting/hiding the truth to make a buck.
01-06-2014, 10:27 PM
#10
"After scouring the country looking for excellent lifters at a reasonable price, we are proud to introduce our USA made, Slow Leakdown Rate lifters! The problem with mass produced hydraulic roller lifters is the lifter bore to plunger tolerance can vary which will dramatically affect bleed down rate. A lifter with a plunger that is too loose can have too fast of a bleed down rate and can "tick" at low engine speeds, which is a real nuisance. These lifters and plungers are gauged during production and are mated according to size. They are a true drop in lifter and will work with stock lifter trays. Finally a better alternative to mass produced lifters without the sticker shock of other high end aftermarket lifters!"
My take on the SLR's is....they are a match set....so "bleed down" is consistent between cylinders.
And I would like to say, Brain is one of the most down to Earth, easy to talk to guys and he has a ton of REAL LSx experience to draw from. He has helped me numerous time with my combo and I would not hesitate to use his products or his advise again.
.
01-06-2014, 11:14 PM
#11
The Johnsons lifters I have only have .058" of total travel. They are made of billet steel and have much closer tolerances than stock, are lift bar design, are longer than stock, have the stock .700" wheel with much stronger axle retainers good to 800lbs of open pressure, have axle oiling, and have much slower leak down rates.
LS7 lifters also have a check ball in the bottom of the plunger, the Johnsons/Morels/etc uses a spring loaded check disc.
LS7 lifters also have a check ball in the bottom of the plunger, the Johnsons/Morels/etc uses a spring loaded check disc.
01-06-2014, 11:25 PM
#12
The Johnsons lifters I have only have .058" of total travel. They are made of billet steel and have much closer tolerances than stock, are lift bar design, are longer than stock, have the stock .700" wheel with much stronger axle retainers good to 800lbs of open pressure, have axle oiling, and have much slower leak down rates.
LS7 lifters also have a check ball in the bottom of the plunger, the Johnsons/Morels/etc uses a spring loaded check disc.
LS7 lifters also have a check ball in the bottom of the plunger, the Johnsons/Morels/etc uses a spring loaded check disc.
Your saying that the OEM's are ball check valves and "others" are disc style ??
Thanks......
01-06-2014, 11:29 PM
#13
Tony Mamo will hook you up.
When I talked to Randy @ Johnson, he said Crower would be carrying this soon as well. But for now, Tony is the best place to get them.
And yes, even the SLRs have the disc style valve and a billet body. They are worth the few extra bucks over the LS7 if you don't need link-bar or short-travel capability.
When I talked to Randy @ Johnson, he said Crower would be carrying this soon as well. But for now, Tony is the best place to get them.
And yes, even the SLRs have the disc style valve and a billet body. They are worth the few extra bucks over the LS7 if you don't need link-bar or short-travel capability.
01-07-2014, 01:10 AM
#14
Yes....I want to try some sort of short travel lifter. But my rationale says......I'm spinning stock lifters to 7500 and not having problems (because of the attention to detail in my valve train). So....modify a new set of LS7's and let her eat......and save $350+ dollars.
I will call Johnson tomorrow and get the skinny.....
.
I will call Johnson tomorrow and get the skinny.....
.
