ported ls6 vs tfs 215 vs prc 215
03-02-2014, 05:06 PM
#21
The mast heads barely fit anything without some sort of oddball modification including but not limited to grinding all the locator tabs off the bottom of the plastic intakes. I know, I have installed a few sets.
And Jake, I am not so sure the 220 as cast with "Mamofication" would outwork the TFS cnc modified by WCCH. In fact I am very sure about that. They will be cheaper yes (although by exactly how much is the question), but not as good a performer.
And of course cathedral work better on smaller bores and ls7s on larger bores, that is all that will fit them.
For 6500rpm daily work, the stock or reg stainless valve is not a heavy valve. The beehives should be likely upgraded to a .650 lift range, but that would be about it.
But again, you do not have to run roller rockers on the TFS. They recommend them yes, but you dont HAVE to run them. After you read their write up on loading the valve/guide it is hard to say youd RATHER run the stockers if you have the dough for roller rockers, but you dont have to.
Proper setup and attention to detail/specs is the best way to make the best power out of anything.
And Jake, I am not so sure the 220 as cast with "Mamofication" would outwork the TFS cnc modified by WCCH. In fact I am very sure about that. They will be cheaper yes (although by exactly how much is the question), but not as good a performer.
And of course cathedral work better on smaller bores and ls7s on larger bores, that is all that will fit them.
For 6500rpm daily work, the stock or reg stainless valve is not a heavy valve. The beehives should be likely upgraded to a .650 lift range, but that would be about it.
But again, you do not have to run roller rockers on the TFS. They recommend them yes, but you dont HAVE to run them. After you read their write up on loading the valve/guide it is hard to say youd RATHER run the stockers if you have the dough for roller rockers, but you dont have to.
Proper setup and attention to detail/specs is the best way to make the best power out of anything.
03-02-2014, 07:26 PM
#23
The trick flows will be your best bet period if you have an under 3k budget. If you have under a 2k budget the trick flow as cast. If you cant afford that your first option is the only option but AI wants a pretty penny for their port jobs and the options to make them as standard as an aftermarket set of heads.
03-03-2014, 01:01 AM
#24
One of the unkown features about the 205s is that besides the full CNC porting; they already have the powdered metal valveguides which work real well with the factory rocker arms. Huge runner velocity and the 13.5 degree valve angle makes them quite phenomenal performers.
Your Vette will be runnin' sub 11s for sure this year...probably 125-126 mph
Your Vette will be runnin' sub 11s for sure this year...probably 125-126 mph
My brother has a large off the shelf cam that was spec'd for nitrous and the stock heads with tfs 205s and went 10.8 all motor with the stock 3.42, so I'm hoping for a bit better out of my car.
03-03-2014, 12:26 PM
#27
With all the options added on the AIs to make them comparable they are very close in price. And for the third time you CAN use stock rockers on the TFS. And I am not so sure id say the AI will make just as much power as the TFS. AI usually makes their runners very large to make the big power and you lose some streetability when you do that.
03-03-2014, 12:32 PM
#28
The mast heads barely fit anything without some sort of oddball modification including but not limited to grinding all the locator tabs off the bottom of the plastic intakes. I know, I have installed a few sets.
And Jake, I am not so sure the 220 as cast with "Mamofication" would outwork the TFS cnc modified by WCCH. In fact I am very sure about that. They will be cheaper yes (although by exactly how much is the question), but not as good a performer.
And of course cathedral work better on smaller bores and ls7s on larger bores, that is all that will fit them.
For 6500rpm daily work, the stock or reg stainless valve is not a heavy valve. The beehives should be likely upgraded to a .650 lift range, but that would be about it.
But again, you do not have to run roller rockers on the TFS. They recommend them yes, but you dont HAVE to run them. After you read their write up on loading the valve/guide it is hard to say youd RATHER run the stockers if you have the dough for roller rockers, but you dont have to.
Proper setup and attention to detail/specs is the best way to make the best power out of anything.
And Jake, I am not so sure the 220 as cast with "Mamofication" would outwork the TFS cnc modified by WCCH. In fact I am very sure about that. They will be cheaper yes (although by exactly how much is the question), but not as good a performer.
And of course cathedral work better on smaller bores and ls7s on larger bores, that is all that will fit them.
For 6500rpm daily work, the stock or reg stainless valve is not a heavy valve. The beehives should be likely upgraded to a .650 lift range, but that would be about it.
But again, you do not have to run roller rockers on the TFS. They recommend them yes, but you dont HAVE to run them. After you read their write up on loading the valve/guide it is hard to say youd RATHER run the stockers if you have the dough for roller rockers, but you dont have to.
Proper setup and attention to detail/specs is the best way to make the best power out of anything.
Here is an e-mail that I got from Brian Tooley regarding the TFS 220cc as cast heads and his hand port work, which was only going to be an extra $300.00. See below:
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
03-03-2014, 12:51 PM
#29
With all the options added on the AIs to make them comparable they are very close in price. And for the third time you CAN use stock rockers on the TFS. And I am not so sure id say the AI will make just as much power as the TFS. AI usually makes their runners very large to make the big power and you lose some streetability when you do that.
It made 462 and backed it up at the track trapping 125 in full street trim on street tires.
There was nothing done to the heads outside of the port work and milling. Stock ls2 valves. I paid a total of $1550 for the heads. $300 for the 799s on ebay,$1000 for the port work, and $250 for the springs. Which left an extra $1000 left over for everything else, fast intake, ls2 tb, injectors, etc.
A cam with more duration would have probably made 475. That's about all you get out of an ls1 outside of the super radical setups that have to turn a ton of RPM.
I've seen cars with their 243s many times and they always run just as well as the aftermarket head guys.
03-03-2014, 01:12 PM
#31
With all the options added on the AIs to make them comparable they are very close in price. And for the third time you CAN use stock rockers on the TFS. And I am not so sure id say the AI will make just as much power as the TFS. AI usually makes their runners very large to make the big power and you lose some streetability when you do that.
I don't see their runners being any bigger than the rest of the companies out there who port 243/799 heads.
PRC Stage 2.5 LS6 heads have a 230cc intake runner, Livernois Stage 2 LS6 heads have a 220cc intake runner, TEA Stage 2 LS6 heads have 229cc intake runners, Land Speed LS6 heads have a 245cc intake runner and the AI LS6 heads have either 226cc or 232cc intake runners. They seem to be right on par with all the other head porters out there. Matched with the right cam, street manners would not be an issue.
Last edited by Rise of the Phoenix; 03-03-2014 at 03:10 PM.
03-03-2014, 03:29 PM
#32
Tough luck that you had bad luck with the Mast heads.
Yes you can run powder metal valve guides with tfs, but if you run a stock rocker on a trickflow head, it voids the warranty from trickflow I do believe. You also have to grind down the mounting tab for the stock rockers, so its not just a bolt and go type deal. You still have to modify those cathedral trickflow heads inorder to make them work minus trickflow not backing them after the mods are made.
The powered metal valve guides + install are around $200 bucks.
Yes you can run powder metal valve guides with tfs, but if you run a stock rocker on a trickflow head, it voids the warranty from trickflow I do believe. You also have to grind down the mounting tab for the stock rockers, so its not just a bolt and go type deal. You still have to modify those cathedral trickflow heads inorder to make them work minus trickflow not backing them after the mods are made.
The powered metal valve guides + install are around $200 bucks.
That is not tough luck. That is called proper machining/casting.
And you can run the stock rockers with the guides that are in them. And as far as the modifications most ls guys do, grinding off 4 tabs at the most is cake.
Before you argue that, in my case, ive had to modify to use either head, it took mere minutes with the tfs as compared to hours to modify and figure out how to make things work with the Mast heads. And this (mast) was on an ls1 camaro. Nothing fancy.
03-03-2014, 04:04 PM
#34
I generally recommend the TFS As-Cast worked by Tooley, but new 243s/TEA port work is a little cheaper and not any worse. Though, you do have more PtV clearance with the TFS heads, which for many people is important.
Even still, I am running the LS6 heads. It doesn't have the funky geometry of TFS heads and is lighter. Plus I flycut, so the clearance of the head was a moot point.
Even still, I am running the LS6 heads. It doesn't have the funky geometry of TFS heads and is lighter. Plus I flycut, so the clearance of the head was a moot point.
03-03-2014, 04:32 PM
#35
Yes. ALL the mast heads were machined that way (,maybe just at the time, but I wont use them again to have to worry about it). They were not going to fix it.
As far as this thread goes, he did not even ask about the MAST in the first place and if he were just starting out with an LS then going through all the possible hoops that they would give him would sure put a bad taste in his mouth. Esp for the price you pay.
As far as "funky geometry" I have no idea what you mean by that. The different length pushrod and valve angle by far are not anything funky.
As far as this thread goes, he did not even ask about the MAST in the first place and if he were just starting out with an LS then going through all the possible hoops that they would give him would sure put a bad taste in his mouth. Esp for the price you pay.
As far as "funky geometry" I have no idea what you mean by that. The different length pushrod and valve angle by far are not anything funky.
03-04-2014, 11:52 AM
#36
For throttle response with a smaller intake runner I would choose the PRC 215cc heads. For budget & all out power I would choose the PRC AsCast aftermarket head. Both heads have 12° valve angles and a 3/4" deck surface. You can also run stock rocker arms on either one. At $1,800.00 for the AsCast with .650 dual springs you just can't beat the price for bang for the buck and getting you into an aftermarket head casting. BTW, the AsCast heads, power wise, are very close to our 227cc heads. Just a few HP difference.
Lonnie
Lonnie
Last edited by Sales3@Texas-Speed; 03-04-2014 at 01:30 PM.
03-04-2014, 04:24 PM
#38
They told the guy that got them "sorry thats how they come". Just because people dont make threads about things doesnt mean they dont happen. I know of more but ive ran them through the ringer enough. I normally will not recommend them at all now.
03-04-2014, 05:01 PM
#39
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ok....the conclusion i get is basically trickflow heads or stock ls6 heads ported by the right person can be just as effective
with ported 243s u can basically use stock additional componets
with ported 243s u can basically use stock additional componets
03-04-2014, 05:14 PM
#40
You can use stock components (rockers) on either of our PRC 215 or AsCast heads. We also offer stage 2.5 LS6 heads though for not much more $ you can step up to the AsCast heads to get into an aftermarket casting with 12° valve angles and a 3/4" deck surface.
Lonnie
Lonnie